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Re-read the part about him making his statement prior to any witnesses. Usually when that happens the "suspect" has no idea what anybody else saw, if at all and what they might say. So far, all of what GZ said in his initial statement that could be corroborated by other witnesses has been by most of the witnesses. This gives greater credence to whatever else he said that cannot be corroborated.
As if it's that hard to be vague about the details. Where the altercation began, both man and boy could've been standing someplace where they were virtually out of sight. Before things got ugly, what's the chance that anyone would've been paying attention to them anyway? I'm sure Zimmerman isn't that stupid, he might have considered this and used it to his advantage.
I'm sure it's usual, but I wouldn't doubt there have been cases where a suspect made up a story and it was later proven false by evidence or witness accounts.
And you obviously don't know much about the law or the Rules of Criminal Procedure, nor how a trial really works.
A number of people have posted that they don't think this case is about race. So why don't you let go of the topic? Looks like some people are protesting too much.
Because practically everything said here, the preponderance is predicated on profiling and the notion the picture the idiot liberal corrupt liberal media painted of a choir boy. It is about what I said it was about. mr. Zimmerman did you verbally provoke, physically invade the space of this young adult. If your old enough to puff on a joint and pack a throw down punch on an adult you are you have called the shots of adult responsibility.
Did z invade his space. Answer that question you have solved the riddle. Otherwise it was self defense.
TM ran from GZ and GZ did not have an eye on him. This part we know for sure. TM could have easily ran home or stay hidden. Why didn't he? SYG says that if you can get away you should. If he had gotten away SYG no longer pertains to TM.
You are only assuming GZ was following TM to confront him. He was more likely following him only to observe him, to see if he was committing a crime and to let the cops know where he was. GZ had no idea if TM could be violent. I don't remember GZ saying the suspect in the hoodiw might be armed and dangerous. Those are your words, I suspect.
You're getting SYG confused with self-defense. SYG has no duty to retreat.
Apparently, GZ did say to the dispatcher...."these *******s always get away."
You're preaching to the choir here regarding the unreliability of eye witnesses. That being said, eye witnesses are used in criminal cases.
However, I disagree with you that the prosecution is "hanging its hat" on the two things you pointed out. At this time, you don't know what kind of physical evidence the prosecution has in this case, or even if you know all of any kind of evidence the state has. (Btw, do you have a link to Trayvon being involved in illegal fighting at school???) Also, I think you'd do really poor job at cross examining the girl who was talking to Trayvon on the phone at the time of the incident, if your above concerns about this witness indicate the types of questions you would ask. Remember, the jury determines the credibility of the witnesses, not the public. Sooo, words are considered "vague sounds" by you? Come on. There will likely be a number of eye witnesses called to the stand if this goes to trial.
You do know what lesser includeds are, don't you? The jury will be able to come back with a verdict of guilty on one of the lesser included crimes within the 2nd degree murder charge. We won't know until see actually see/hear the State's evidence at a hearing or a trial whether or not the State "over-charged" in this case.
Try to sort this thing out in your mind. The state must prove the elements of 2nd murder, or one of the lesser includeds.
The defense has asserted self defense, so the defendant will have to put on evidence that he killed Trayvon in self defense.
You're getting things all confused in your mind about how this will play out at a trial.
I'm going off of her own statement. Even taking her statement at face value, she extrapolated a lot on what she thought she heard. That's too sketchy to convict a person for 2d degree murder, especially when the physical evidence is so one-sided.
Lesser included charges aren't automatic in FL - it has to be explicitly tacked on by the prosecutor.
There's likely no significant physical evidence we have not seen in this case so far. We already know how close TM and Z were when TM was shot, the extent of injuries, the position of the body, etc. The evidence the state wants sealed is Z's statements to the police because those are protected under a FL law as confessions.
TM ran from GZ and GZ did not have an eye on him. This part we know for sure. TM could have easily ran home or stay hidden. Why didn't he? SYG says that if you can get away you should.
Not true, but I wish it did. That's the whole reason many of us in Florida were opposed to the bill when it was signed into law in 2005. There is no duty to retreat. You obviously know little about Florida's SYG law.
Because practically everything said here, the preponderance is predicated on profiling and the notion the picture the idiot liberal corrupt liberal media painted of a choir boy. It is about what I said it was about. mr. Zimmerman did you verbally provoke, physically invade the space of this young adult. If your old enough to puff on a joint and pack a throw down punch on an adult you are you have called the shots of adult responsibility.
Did z invade his space. Answer that question you have solved the riddle. Otherwise it was self defense.
"the preponderance" of WHAT? You're throwing out buzzwords that don't fit. "the preponderance" of what "predicated on profiling"......
Also, now you've added a new element. This is the first time you've mention "verbally" provoking Trayvon.
this is not a riddle. It's a criminal case in the court system in Florida.
I've read posts that say that Martin followed Zimmerman to his car and attacked him. I've also read that Zimmerman said he was in his car and Martin was circling it and he was afraid. I personally have not read Zimmerman's statements, but just going on what I've read here, it seems to me, if Martin circled back and attacked him on the way to his car, (how did Zimmerman manage to be in his car, fearful of Martin at that time) that the body should have been located somewhere in near proximity to the car. If the body was located far from the car, then how did this incident happen?
You know, it's possible take measurements of all the places referred to in this incident, and compare those measurements to the timeline of the incident, and determine whether or not it was possible, for example, for Trayvon to have circled around whatever and attacked Zimmermen, or whether or not it was possible for Trayvon to circle back, get to the car, circle the car as Zimmerman sat there, and then for Zimmerman to get out and have a fight then shoot Trayvon. Yes, there are experts out there that can make that kind of analysis and explain it in scientific terms to a jury and the court, with diagrams.
So, actually, where the car was located, where the body was located, and all those locations mentioned by Zimmerman and other witnesses, could be very important to this case, even critical to this case.
I think you're misplacing some events in the timeline. Zimmerman STARTED out in his car, on the phone telling the police dispatcher that this unknown guy who looked like he was on something was coming toward him with his hand in his waistband. Your post is the first suggestion I've seen that Zimmerman claimed to have gotten back into his car. Can you share the source of that factoid?
I'm going off of her own statement. Even taking her statement at face value, she extrapolated a lot on what she thought she heard. That's too sketchy to convict a person for 2d degree murder, especially when the physical evidence is so one-sided.
Lesser included charges aren't automatic in FL - it has to be explicitly tacked on by the prosecutor.
There's likely no significant physical evidence we have not seen in this case so far. We already know how close TM and Z were when TM was shot, the extent of injuries, the position of the body, etc. The evidence the state wants sealed is Z's statements to the police because those are protected under a FL law as confessions.
Do you think that girl is the only witness the state has in this case? It's, as I think you said, the totality of the evidence. And, again, you do not have access to all of the evidence at this point.
What we don't know is how close was Trayvon's body to Zimmerman's car? Did Trayvon actually have time to "circle back" and attack Zimmerman, and how long did it take Zimmerman to get back to his car as he supposedly claimed he was sitting in his car and Martin was circling the car staring at him, and he was afraid? You know there are experts out there who can analyze measurements of various locations and the timeline as is recorded because of Zimmerman's call to police and the 911 calls, and they can come up with how long it would take people of Martin's height and approximate size as well as Zimmerman's to travel those distances. That would be considered physical evidence.
Do you have a link or something which says that lesser includeds are not "automatic" in Florida?
Last edited by FancyFeast5000; 05-23-2012 at 08:49 PM..
You're getting SYG confused with self-defense. SYG has no duty to retreat.
Apparently, GZ did say to the dispatcher...."these *******s always get away."
oops - didn't see your response before I posted.
Yes, SYG in FL has no duty to retreat, even if you are able to get away. I feel as if we are just going around in circles on these threads. I've already posted several quotes from the authors of Florida's SYG law who said it does not apply in this case. However, I did mention that if people keep bringing up SYG as a defense, it should also apply to TM who was being followed and felt threatened.
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