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I saw the beginnings of a discussion on another thread and thought I'd get this started.
I personally don't think that vouchers are a good idea [disclaimer: I am in grad school to be a public school teacher]. One of the main reasons that private schools have better students/results is that they tend to be the children of rich(er) people (which has a strong likelihood to have above average intelligence) and (most importantly) the parents are very concerned with performance and diligently check up on the child, as well as expecting high effort/results.
Private schools don't always require teachers to have degrees in the subjects they teach (they don't always require degrees even), principals also don't have to have any special training in teaching children, and are actually just "administrators". They also pay the teachers around half the (dismal) rate of public school teachers. What kind of outstanding employees do you think you get for half price?
Saying you can send the average kid to a private school and expect better results is flawed logic. It's like saying hot chicks wear tight spandex, so if a fat chick puts on a spandex outfit she will be hot. The desired result comes from a lot of hard work.
I totally support vouchers - vouchers will allow parents the opportunity to educate THEIR children how THEY want - not the way the government wants them to be educated.
Sorry, Evlevo, but I have to disagree with your here. My last teaching position was at a charter school with a classical curriculum that modeled private prep schools. Because we were a publically funded school, we could not pick and choose our students. We had very poor students, but our chain of schools scores highest on standardized tests in the state. We had students with significant learning disabilities, several who failed out of their previous schools, and it seemed that half my public school kids were diagnosed with ADHD. My seventh graders finished last year writing better than any of my senior students did in public high school. I've learned a huge lesson about underestimating what a lower income student can do, and I fully support vouchers.
Sorry, Evlevo, but I have to disagree with your here. My last teaching position was at a charter school with a classical curriculum that modeled private prep schools. Because we were a publicly funded school, we could not pick and choose our students. We had very poor students, but our chain of schools scores highest on standardized tests in the state. We had students with significant learning disabilities, several who failed out of their previous schools, and it seemed that half my public school kids were diagnosed with ADHD. My seventh graders finished last year writing better than any of my senior students did in public high school. I've learned a huge lesson about underestimating what a lower income student can do, and I fully support vouchers.
Sounds like you are a pretty good teacher Let me ask you this though... would you have worked that job for (approximately) half the pay (or less), which is what most private schools pay? My wife worked for a private school (the largest chain nationally) and they gave everyone a $0.01/ hour raise one year (with record profits). Keep in mind they started her at only $2.00/hr over minimum wage, and the tuition from her students was over $150,000/yr!
[Free-standing charter schools often bite off more than they can chew. The presumption is that without the bureaucratic restraints of the public school system and the teacher unions, charter schools can provide better education at lower cost. But the problem with failing public schools is that they often lack both resources and skilled, experienced teachers. While there are obvious exceptions, some charter schools embark on a path that simply recreates the failures of the schools they were developed to replace.]
My kids both have an IEP for speech. They are in private school this year because the state now pays the private school the equivalent FTE amount. I still have to pay the balance of tuition, books, other fees- and have taken a loan to do so. There is no comparison in their public schools last year (both "A" rated) and their new school.
Public school teachers do have higher educational requirements and there are many good public school teachers. But the FCAT and other hoops that they must jump through are burning them out.
My son mentioned that the teachers don't yell in his new school. When I asked two public school teachers from my church about this, they said that many teachers yell, that they are so frustrated that they just lose it.
And my daughter reported, in amazement, that when she asks a question, all the kids in the class turn to listen to her. I asked what they did in her old school. "They are goofing off, laying their heads down on desks, all kinds of things." The weekend before school started my aunt told me that this was the first year she was dreading going back to the (public school) classroom.
Overall, vouchers aren't good, but for the kids who have the option, they can be a lifesaver. I will continue to support public school funding and better conditions for teachers and students, but I will use the rules in place to provide a better education for my kids in their private school.
jcp. I have to respect where you are and what you've gone through.
But, I guess I'm kind of back woods. I live up here in Wyoming and we don't experience what you are put through.
We have maximum class load of 22 students. State law. As an educator, you will take that 22 students and make them into people. You will not complain. hahah Course with only 22 "English" speaking students, you'd better not complain. haha We don't have a English as a Second Language teacher. We don't need one. Our students speak English. Our biggest problem is the ranch kids. Ya kno when I hed to town I sadle up star so I'm sur I have a gud mount. haha
I worked in teaching and curriculuum developement for over 25 years. It was the most noble, most profound, most satisfying thing I could do in life.
There is nothing more promising then when you see the light bulb come on.
We are now spending more money on education than we ever have in the history of our country. Throwing money at public schools in many areas of the United States simply doesn't work. Many graduates of public high schools simply don't measure up.
I support vouchers because it means if local public schools don't measure up, then poor and middle class parents who normally wouldn't have the money to send their children to private schools would be able to. They could pull their children out of the non-performing schools, along with the cash, and they can support a private school that does measure up.
Public schools, seeing the handwriting on the walls, would have to make major changes and begin producing quality high school graduates or they would be hurt financially where it counts. On the other hand, if the public schools are in fact providing a quality public education, the parents would have no reason to send their children to a public school.
All a voucher does is give the parents a choice. Public schools that are doing their jobs would have nothing to fear. Public schools that are failing would be given a wake up call. Vouchers provide competition. Competition provides a better product. Public schools are government run, and other than the military perhaps, there are very few things that the government can do better than the private sector.
We are now spending more money on education than we ever have in the history of our country. Throwing money at public schools in many areas of the United States simply doesn't work. Many graduates of public high schools simply don't measure up.
I support vouchers because it means if local public schools don't measure up, then poor and middle class parents who normally wouldn't have the money to send their children to private schools would be able to. They could pull their children out of the non-performing schools, along with the cash, and they can support a private school that does measure up.
I do agree that some schools are graduating kids who don't have the skills they need. Sometimes it is the schools fault, sometimes it is done in partnership with bad parents and/or being generally dealt a poor hand by life.
Much of the reason that some public schools are under-performing has nothing to do with the actual teaching. It is kids coming to school without having breakfast, kids who literally get zero support/encouragement from parents, kids with learning disabilities, etc. If you simply shipped the kids who are causing the problems (directly or indirectly) to a private school, you will see the private school's numbers drop like a rock, and I doubt that any private school would accept a kid with an IEP (individual education plan... basically what kids who are a little behind and need some form of special ed get) since it would be much more expensive (and thus cut into the profit margin).
We are now spending more money on education than we ever have in the history of our country. Throwing money at public schools in many areas of the United States simply doesn't work. Many graduates of public high schools simply don't measure up.
That is the absolute truth! What really angers me is how every school bond, and every tax hike proposal intended for public education always pass in all the elections. It shows how ignorant the voting public can be (probably educated in the public school system ... ha ha). And what are we GETTING as a result of all the money being thrown into public schools? The answer: more illiteracy, more under performers, and still more whining from the liberals that not enough money is being spent on education.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkeye48
All a voucher does is give the parents a choice. Public schools that are doing their jobs would have nothing to fear. Public schools that are failing would be given a wake up call. Vouchers provide competition. Competition provides a better product. Public schools are government run, and other than the military perhaps, there are very few things that the government can do better than the private sector.
I entirely agree with this concept ... except I think that all schools should be privatized. If that can't be achieved, then I propose that if we have to keep the system public, make the PARENTS pay for their kids who use the public system (sort of a "user fee"). I'm tired of 70% of my property taxes being taken from me and thrown into this black hole that has proven to be a failure. I don't use the public school system, and I don't have any kids, so why should I be forced to pay for it?!
We are now spending more money on education than we ever have in the history of our country. Throwing money at public schools in many areas of the United States simply doesn't work. Many graduates of public high schools simply don't measure up.
I support vouchers because it means if local public schools don't measure up, then poor and middle class parents who normally wouldn't have the money to send their children to private schools would be able to. They could pull their children out of the non-performing schools, along with the cash, and they can support a private school that does measure up.
Public schools, seeing the handwriting on the walls, would have to make major changes and begin producing quality high school graduates or they would be hurt financially where it counts. On the other hand, if the public schools are in fact providing a quality public education, the parents would have no reason to send their children to a public school.
All a voucher does is give the parents a choice. Public schools that are doing their jobs would have nothing to fear. Public schools that are failing would be given a wake up call. Vouchers provide competition. Competition provides a better product. Public schools are government run, and other than the military perhaps, there are very few things that the government can do better than the private sector.
I guess, my question is that, "Why doesn't education measure up? The state had an education system, they have standards. So do the other states. Is it not good enough? If now, why not? School has to reach a high enough level to graduate. If they don't, set them back and let them try again. Simple structure as far as I can see it.
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Let me ask you this though... would you have worked that job for (approximately) half the pay (or less), which is what most private schools pay? My wife worked for a private school (the largest chain nationally) and they gave everyone a $0.01/ hour raise one year (with record profits). Keep in mind they started her at only $2.00/hr over minimum wage, and the tuition from her students was over $150,000/yr!
