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You forget, this isn't your thread. The "I'm taking the moral high road in spite of repeated agrievances" simply isn't appropriate. The denier position is simply indefensible and gets less so with every passing day. The percent of scientists that support AGW is overwhelming.
So science is reduced to consensus?
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm
Enough deniers have stated that their only objection to the proposed measures to reduce greenhouse gas emission is the cost of doing so. That's it. The freaking cost.
We are all for reducing our output of fossil fuels, especially coal and gasoline, but we want to do it in a way that makes sense, and does not punish an entire industry, or punish the average citizen, when we have no current viable alternative to fossil fuels.
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm
Exxon-Mobil made 11 billion in the first quarter of last year. That's more than all other industry combined. Ex-Mo spends more money lobbying for inaction on AGW than any amount of Carbon Taxes might ever be levied against them. Isn't that the way you guys... spend billions to argue against the spending of millions... that makes sense... only in America.
H
And the 0bama administration has given away about $200 billion taxpayer dollars on green energy. 0bama has been bragging about spending tens of billions more on green energy. How can any industry compete with that? Even more taxpayer money is funneled into green energy on a global scale.
Pay attention to the "counters" dv1033 provides. They are classic avoid, dismiss, and attack techniques that would make Alinsky proud (at least I hope that is his approach as it would be sad if he was that dense).
Anyway, It was enjoyable to push them into a corner and watch them all race around like cockroaches in the light, but to be honest, I have no desire to argue with people who apply political tactics. They know they have no case and paying them any bother consistently just gives them more credit than they deserve. They are dying, they know it, which means they get more and more nasty because of it. I say, kick back and watch them thrash about. *chuckle*
Oh, and it is going to get nasty with their arrogance this year. Looks like we may have beat 2007 pretty strongly in some aspects of the arctic. You know they are going to dance around like idiots claiming they are validated by it and expect to hear the MSM fear mongering like idiots about how all the predictions have came true, CAGW is fact and blah blah blah.
I think it is hilarious, and from a scientific standpoint I would love to see the arctic completely ice free during a summer. It is far from it, but still... I would love to see it and then watch how all of them squirm trying to explain how because it has happened, well.... all their "doom and gloom" is still missing from the equation. I think it would be funny to see how they try to spin the positive aspects of the occurrence. Like I said, I look forward to it happening, I want it to happen.
It is quite amusing to watch you get on your soap box and talk about watching people squirm and people deflecting... and then watch as you deflect. It's not surprising really. It amuses me when people can't put simple things together
So science is reduced to consensus? We are all for reducing our output of fossil fuels, especially coal and gasoline, but we want to do it in a way that makes sense, and does not punish an entire industry, or punish the average citizen, when we have no current viable alternative to fossil fuels.
A simple carbon tax or increasing the gas tax will do that.
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And the 0bama administration has given away about $200 billion taxpayer dollars on green energy. 0bama has been bragging about spending tens of billions more on green energy. How can any industry compete with that? Even more taxpayer money is funneled into green energy on a global scale.
A simple carbon tax or increasing the gas tax will do that.
Source for 200 billion dollars?
A carbon tax to make us all poorer, all on a "what if" scare tactic.
The money is allocated, I'm not sure if it has all been spent yet. You can read in his Stimulus where they say $106 billion was earmarked for green energy. And he is planning on spending about $200 billion more in his plans. Is he double or triple counting? I don't know, but then you'd have to assume he is lying or purposely trying to deceive the public.
Help create five million new jobs by strategically investing $150 billion over the next ten years to catalyze private efforts to build a clean energy future.
Put 1 million Plug-In Hybrid cars -- cars that can get up to 150 miles per gallon -- on the road by 2015, cars that we will work to make sure are built here in America.
Get 1 Million Plug-In Hybrid Cars on the Road by 2015.
Create a New $7,000 Tax Credit for Purchasing Advanced Vehicles.
$7,000x 1,000,000=$7,000,000,000. He just keeps spending.
I like how we can't "drill baby drill" our way to cheaper oil prices, but 0bama will:
Swap Oil from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve to Cut Prices
A carbon tax to make us all poorer, all on a "what if" scare tactic.
Haha. See how you just let fear rule you. You don't even know how much this hypothetical tax could be or even the basic parameters, yet you are already certain it will make us "poorer".
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The money is allocated, I'm not sure if it has all been spent yet. You can read in his Stimulus where they say $106 billion was earmarked for green energy. And he is planning on spending about $200 billion more in his plans. Is he double or triple counting? I don't know, but then you'd have to assume he is lying or purposely trying to deceive the public.
Help create five million new jobs by strategically investing $150 billion over the next ten years to catalyze private efforts to build a clean energy future.
Put 1 million Plug-In Hybrid cars -- cars that can get up to 150 miles per gallon -- on the road by 2015, cars that we will work to make sure are built here in America.
Get 1 Million Plug-In Hybrid Cars on the Road by 2015.
Create a New $7,000 Tax Credit for Purchasing Advanced Vehicles.
$7,000x 1,000,000=$7,000,000,000. He just keeps spending.
I see so $200 billion has not been spent like you claimed it was merely proposed and/or allocated. Of which you aren't certain, are you? Personally it is refreshing to see money being spent on something besides wars started by Republican administration.
But then again you are probably ignorant on such things as competing with China's subsidization of the solar and wind industry and other "green industries". Unfortunately and fortunately, China is spending a great deal of money that will end up competing with us on green technology because frankly their environment is a mess and they know they need to do something about it.
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I like how we can't "drill baby drill" our way to cheaper oil prices, but 0bama will:
Swap Oil from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve to Cut Prices
Aw that's cute you turned this into an opportunaity to blast Obama. I also think it is cute and mature of you to refer to Obama as "0bama". You so cute.
Haha. See how you just let fear rule you. You don't even know how much this hypothetical tax could be or even the basic parameters, yet you are already certain it will make us "poorer".
Don't you find this comment interesting Wapasha? I mean, he is going off about how "we don't know" the tax and the hardships it may produce, yet he ignores the fact that many proponents of these taxes have already stated that this will cause energy prices to "sky rocket" and that people will have to "sacrifice" for the "cause". It is their intention to create this hardship, this is not a mystery yet here he is blowing smoke up peoples arse about how we don't know.
Also note he doesn't mention that these plans are already implemented in places like CA and around the world (Australia) which have already shown dramatic increases in costs to the businesses and public and is putting severe economic strain on their societies. I mean, CA's policies are running businesses out of the state and they are using tactics of giving "some" big businesses breaks on the taxes to keep them there (crony capitalism at its finest).
These people are as clueless about the science as they are the solutions (or rather problems) they are applying to society. Then again, did we expect anything different from ignorance and blind allegiance to a cause?
It is quite amusing to watch you get on your soap box and talk about watching people squirm and people deflecting... and then watch as you deflect. It's not surprising really. It amuses me when people can't put simple things together
Wait a minute, I thought climate was complex? At least, that is what we are told when someone brings up an objection to the claims.
Oh, I get it. It is like the "weather is not climate" position you guys take.
Its climate when it supports your position, and weather when it does not.
Ok, I get it, I am little slow here, hard to keep up with you brilliant folk ya know?
Don't you find this comment interesting Wapasha? I mean, he is going off about how "we don't know" the tax and the hardships it may produce, yet he ignores the fact that many proponents of these taxes have already stated that this will cause energy prices to "sky rocket" and that people will have to "sacrifice" for the "cause". It is their intention to create this hardship, this is not a mystery yet here he is blowing smoke up peoples arse about how we don't know.
Sources. I want to see where it says implicitly what you said in bold. Let's see if you are creating this fake narrative again.
You are just letting your fear overtake you. A carbon tax could start off very small and get progressively larger. Or we could just raise the gas tax, since it hasn't been raise in decades or kept up with inflation. Or you can just assume anything we do will be awful and crippling....
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Also note he doesn't mention that these plans are already implemented in places like CA and around the world (Australia) which have already shown dramatic increases in costs to the businesses and public and is putting severe economic strain on their societies. I mean, CA's policies are running businesses out of the state and they are using tactics of giving "some" big businesses breaks on the taxes to keep them there (crony capitalism at its finest).
California's problem go farther than just taxes but nice try oversimplifying the issue to go along with the narrative you've created.
As for Australia they been doing pretty good due to their resource boom (energy and ore), although slowing down due to China and other emerging countries slowing down. Please educate yourself about the world.
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These people are as clueless about the science as they are the solutions (or rather problems) they are applying to society. Then again, did we expect anything different from ignorance and blind allegiance to a cause?
Where linear trend analysis showed an extreme increase in temps.
Then, things changed and we went into a cooling trend:
Which if we apply the same linear analysis they were using, well.. you get the point.
Even with your cherrypicked starting point (warmest year in the 90s obviously not picked at random) you don't get a cooling trend, you get a slight warming trend.
Pick 1997 or 1999 and the linear trend changes. Hmm... maybe a sign the timespan is too short. You also chose the dataset that shows the least warming.
In the UAH dataset, if you chose 1980-1994 you would have found a decline!
Where to begin? First off, why is it significant that temperatures have “remained flat” for 13 years, when the upward trend is larger for 12 years, or 14 years? And, of course, they haven’t remained flat; the trend is upward in most data sets, such as the UAH lower tropospheric satellite data set. This is shown below, using the extremely useful woodfortrees.org web site:
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