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Old 11-21-2012, 02:38 PM
 
Location: The Other California
4,254 posts, read 5,604,970 times
Reputation: 1552

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Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
The society gives what you earn.
Not just the society, but God. People have different innate abilities, were born under different circumstances, etc. Most people aren't capable of "earning" millions of dollars, no matter how hard they work.

In addition to their own efforts, which cannot be discounted, the wealthy are wealthy because of their natural gifts and the gift of a society that makes it possible.
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Old 11-21-2012, 02:42 PM
 
Location: The Other California
4,254 posts, read 5,604,970 times
Reputation: 1552
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." That's your philosophy. Who said it?
Marx, the son of a Jewish convert to Lutheranism, was paraphrasing the voluntary arrangement of the first Christians as described in the Acts of the Apostles. No one here is suggesting (I hope) that the wealthy be taxed according to their full ability to cough up money.
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Old 11-21-2012, 02:43 PM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,979 posts, read 44,793,389 times
Reputation: 13684
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim View Post
Not just the society, but God. People have different innate abilities, were born under different circumstances, etc. Most people aren't capable of "earning" millions of dollars, no matter how hard they work.
The converse is true, as well. There are people who are fully capable of earning millions of dollars who nevertheless, don't. Blows your theory of any self-made high achiever being "given" anything they didn't earn.
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Old 11-21-2012, 02:50 PM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,979 posts, read 44,793,389 times
Reputation: 13684
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim View Post
Marx ...paraphrasing the voluntary arrangement of the first Christians as described in the Acts of the Apostles.
No. He was critiquing what he thought was a too slow and subtle conversion to communism that was stuck instead in socialism. He was advocating the superiority of communism with this slogan.
Critique of the Gotha Programme
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Old 11-21-2012, 02:53 PM
 
Location: The Other California
4,254 posts, read 5,604,970 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
The converse is true, as well. There are people who are fully capable of earning millions of dollars who nevertheless, don't. Blows your theory of any self-made high achiever being "given" anything they didn't earn.
Ah, the brick-wall denial of the ideologue.

You were given your very life, which you didn't earn; along with a free country, which you didn't earn; any natural abilities you have, which you didn't earn; any favorable circumstances, which you didn't earn; etc. etc. Anything you contributed by your own efforts would have come to naught without things you didn't earn. If you don't see this you are a miserable, ungrateful wretch who will come to a very unpleasant end.

The wealthy, in their gratitude, have an obligation to use their wealth for the good of their neighbors and the betterment of society. This should be done voluntarily. If private charity met the needs of the poor, there would be no need for taxation for this purpose. Otherwise, there's nothing wrong with the state ensuring that misers like you contribute their share.
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Old 11-21-2012, 03:06 PM
 
Location: The Other California
4,254 posts, read 5,604,970 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
No. He was critiquing what he thought was a too slow and subtle conversion to communism that was stuck instead in socialism. He was advocating the superiority of communism with this slogan.
Critique of the Gotha Programme
"And all they that believed, were together, and had all things common. Their possessions and goods they sold, and divided them to all, according as every one had need." - Acts 2:44-45

Every heresy involves the exploitation and exaggeration of a truth. This is the truth behind the Marxist heresy, the truth that sold socialism to Christian Europe. Just because Marx exploited certain truths to create a monster doesn't mean we should reject them in our rejection of Marxism. On the contrary, one of the most subtle dangers of Marxism is the overreaction it inspires.
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Old 11-21-2012, 03:21 PM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,979 posts, read 44,793,389 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim View Post
Just because Marx exploited certain truths to create a monster doesn't mean we should reject them in our rejection of Marxism.
Taking excessive amounts from only a small percentage to give to many others who haven't earned it IS an exploitative monster.
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Old 11-21-2012, 03:42 PM
 
Location: ATX-HOU
10,216 posts, read 8,115,646 times
Reputation: 2037
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
Taking excessive amounts from only a small percentage to give to many others who haven't earned it IS an exploitative monster.
Excessive? Lolz are these rich folks going broke from taxes?
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Old 11-21-2012, 03:48 PM
 
Location: Planet earth
3,617 posts, read 1,820,691 times
Reputation: 1258
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim View Post
There's nothing wrong in principle with government taxing the rich to help the poor. There, I said it. And I'm really getting sick and tired of Republicans making "redistribution of wealth" the cornerstone of their opposition to Obama and the Democrats.

True, government taxes too much and spends too much, no question - but the problem is one of degree and not of kind. It's also a problem of the federal government usurping the role of churches, charities, and state/local governments much closer to the people in need. These distinctions are important. When you rail against "redistribution of wealth" as though it's something intrinsically evil, you just sound like selfish, greedy idiots.
I'm in favor or rounding up all those in favor of redistributing the wealth, earnings or property that someone else has earned, compelling this redistribution by government force. Then, after rounding those people up, I'm in favor of redistributing those people to socialist, communist, marxist, or any other non-capitalist type ist country where they can all sing Kum Ba Ya, pound sand and redistribute each other until they are blue in the face.
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Old 11-21-2012, 03:53 PM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,979 posts, read 44,793,389 times
Reputation: 13684
Quote:
Originally Posted by dv1033 View Post
Excessive? Lolz are these rich folks going broke from taxes?
They're slaves for at least 3 months of every year. If you feel so strongly about it, perhaps you could volunteer to be a slave for 6 months. Deal?
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