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Old 03-06-2013, 02:36 PM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
25,947 posts, read 24,749,338 times
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Since many people are getting poorer and poorer relative to the cost of living, the tax rate for large proportions of society all but has to fall. Else many people would simply become a burden on the social security system, or criminal. It is a vicious circle. The only solution to that is changing the system so that the masses earn more than they do now, even if that happens at the expense of the wealthier people.
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Old 03-06-2013, 02:39 PM
 
9,855 posts, read 15,207,220 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Since many people are getting poorer and poorer relative to the cost of living, the tax rate for large proportions of society all but has to fall. Else many people would simply become a burden on the social security system, or criminal. It is a vicious circle. The only solution to that is changing the system so that the masses earn more than they do now, even if that happens at the expense of the wealthier people.
What on earth makes you think people are getting poorer relative to the cost of living?

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Old 03-06-2013, 02:43 PM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
25,947 posts, read 24,749,338 times
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Originally Posted by hnsq View Post
Money absolutely motivates people. Are you insane?

I worked my ass off at 75+ hour weeks for years so that I could get an income where I can afford to own a vacation home, drive a nice car, and take great vacations. There is absolutely no chance I would have worked as hard as I have if it weren't for the chance at earning more money.

And as per the video, it is riddled with inaccurate facts. Taking CEO pay alone, that figure was based on a study that used data from the S&P which only compiled information on the top 350 best performing public companies. Additionally, the mechanism by which they calculated CEO performance changed in 1992, but they kept figures on the same graph. Not only that, but starting in '92 they included all compensation to CEO's (options, benefits, etc.) taking the current NPV of those non-monetary compensation alternatives and compared it to only the cash the average worker takes home.

How on earth can we take a video seriously when it uses that kind of deceptive tactics?



You do realize that you personally pay the same tax rate on passive income as a wealthy person does, don't you? Your 401k, pension, IRA's, etc. all benefit from that lower cap. gains tax rate.
Your system forces you into the rat race. If you have to work 75 hours a week to be able to go on vacation, there is something wrong with your system, not with people working too little. Why do you think people have your standard of living working only 40 hours a week in other countries? Because the income gap is not as big there.

I am a big fan of material modesty. Not wanting stuff in the first place saves so much time and energy and makes you focus on what is really important in life. For instance, I have never gone on vacation in my whole life and I never will.
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Old 03-06-2013, 02:44 PM
 
7,359 posts, read 5,464,526 times
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Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
I think it is irrelevant how someone gets so filthy rich as to be part of those 5 or 1%. The bottom line is, NOBODY deserves it no matter what...

Sooner or later mankind will have to develop an advanced mentality based on not wanting to become rich, but on wanting to do something meaningful in their lives, meaningful to themselves as well as to society as a whole.
So our advanced mentality will lead us to establish an arbitrary point before which you deserve the dollars you work to gain but after which you do not deserve those same dollars you worked just as hard to gain.
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Old 03-06-2013, 02:49 PM
 
9,855 posts, read 15,207,220 times
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Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Your system forces you into the rat race. If you have to work 75 hours a week to be able to go on vacation, there is something wrong with your system, not with people working too little. Why do you think people have your standard of living working only 40 hours a week in other countries? Because the income gap is not as big there.

I am a big fan of material modesty. Not wanting stuff in the first place saves so much time and energy and makes you focus on what is really important in life. For instance, I have never gone on vacation in my whole life and I never will.
I worked 75+ hours per week for years to prove I deserved the job I have now, and now I work 50 hours per week for a pretty good salary.

If you are a fan of 'material modesty' great! You should absolutely live your life that way, but don't force your own personal value system upon other people. Have enough respect for other people that you let them make their own choices in life. I would never want a life that is miserable enough where I never as much as go on a vacation. I enjoy being financially able to fly to Australia or Alaska or Tokyo to go on a week long trip every year if I want to. I enjoy being financially able to go out for drinks on a rooftop deck overlooking the city on a friday night. I enjoy being financially able to play golf 2-3 times per month.

There is nothing wrong with the system. We just have people like you trying to legislate their own personal values instead of letting people have the freedom to live however they want.
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Old 03-06-2013, 02:49 PM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
25,947 posts, read 24,749,338 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq View Post
What on earth makes you think people are getting poorer relative to the cost of living?
Um, your diagram shows that wage growth curve is falling stronger than the CPI curve, last year the wage curve probably got lower than the CPI curve already.
Plus, those wages are averaged, while the prices of the given products are the same no matter if you are rich or poor.
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Old 03-06-2013, 02:51 PM
 
9,855 posts, read 15,207,220 times
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Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Um, your diagram shows that wage growth curve is falling stronger than the CPI curve, last year the wage curve probably got lower than the CPI curve already.
Plus, those wages are averaged, while the prices of the given products are the same no matter if you are rich or poor.
Wages have followed costs for decades, and shows no sign of changing. Additionally, the lifestyle of the average middle class person today is dramatically better than the lifestyle of the average middle class person 50 years ago.
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Old 03-06-2013, 02:53 PM
 
Location: Boston, MA
14,483 posts, read 11,285,313 times
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Originally Posted by Chi-town Native View Post
I'm not sure what year the video's author is using for their data, but I'm not finding the stats you are posting as telling a significantly different story. Our wealth distribution is messed up and will ultimately lead us to a violent uprising similar to the French Revolution.

From your "wealth" link:
The Wealth Distribution

In the United States, wealth is highly concentrated in a relatively few hands. As of 2010, the top 1% of households (the upper class) owned 35.4% of all privately held wealth, and the next 19% (the managerial, professional, and small business stratum) had 53.5%, which means that just 20% of the people owned a remarkable 89%, leaving only 11% of the wealth for the bottom 80% (wage and salary workers).


In terms of financial wealth (total net worth minus the value of one's home), the top 1% of households had an even greater share: 42.1%.
Revolution?!?!
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Old 03-06-2013, 02:54 PM
 
Location: Dallas
31,290 posts, read 20,744,889 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chi-town Native View Post
I applaud that you went to taxfoundation.org, btw. I am fully on board with dealing with facts.

Here's one from that site that a lot of people don't seem to be aware of, which is how reliant some of the most vocal "small government" states are on the federal dole:
I'm not sure what your point is. What does desiring small government have to do with revenue sharing.
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Old 03-06-2013, 02:54 PM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
25,947 posts, read 24,749,338 times
Reputation: 9728
Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq View Post
I worked 75+ hours per week for years to prove I deserved the job I have now, and now I work 50 hours per week for a pretty good salary.

If you are a fan of 'material modesty' great! You should absolutely live your life that way, but don't force your own personal value system upon other people. Have enough respect for other people that you let them make their own choices in life. I would never want a life that is miserable enough where I never as much as go on a vacation. I enjoy being financially able to fly to Australia or Alaska or Tokyo to go on a week long trip every year if I want to. I enjoy being financially able to go out for drinks on a rooftop deck overlooking the city on a friday night. I enjoy being financially able to play golf 2-3 times per month.

There is nothing wrong with the system. We just have people like you trying to legislate their own personal values instead of letting people have the freedom to live however they want.
Yes indeed. Many people are not reasonable. If they are not controlled and limited, they will develop antisocial tendencies. Control and conditioning are important factors of human life, including with adults, whether we like it or not.

All that flying, tourism, and stuff will sooner or later stop anyway. It is just a matter of time. We are like stupid teenagers at a party we think will last forever...
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