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But there are a number of rich black American men who have the income, power and celebrity status to function as venture capitalists for black emerging entrepreneurs and small businesses, but they don't. At some point, personal responsibility has to be factored in.
Ok....lets factor that in. Now....explain to me why black people would be less personally responsible than any other group of people? At some point people like you have to explain these "factors" that you say needs to be factored in. What makes these factors endemic to black people to the degree that they explain away the differences in socioeconomics?
That having been said, don't you know that when blacks try to target and lift up other blacks.....that whites have challenged it? Their argument has been that if blacks can target blacks for help, then whites should be able to target whites. What you are suggesting is simply another form of Affirmative Action and whites have been attacking Affirmative Action, or any act that seeks to target blacks, specifically, for help, as unconstitutional......because they cannot do the same for whites.
Also....how is your suggested example of rich black venture capitalist an example of "personal responsibility"?
Last edited by Indentured Servant; 10-20-2013 at 12:52 PM..
In truth, it's not merely a black issue, but fatherless households are certainly more pervasive amongst black Americans. The mothers and grandmothers try very hard, but they can never make up for the men who abandon their children, because boys need positive male role models. Without positive males in the household and in the larger community, violence and criminality will usually ensue.
I'm sure it's been covered already, but the replacement of a father figure by some hip-hop artist the child idolizes who glorifies the thug life and exploitation of women through their music doesn't help much either. Most single mothers can't override that type of powerful influence, and that's if they're even trying to. That "get rich or die tryin" mentality has a lot to do with the issue at hand.
I'm sure it's been covered already, but the replacement of a father figure by some hip-hop artist the child idolizes who glorifies the thug life and exploitation of women through their music doesn't help much either. Most single mothers can't override that type of powerful influence, and that's if they're even trying to. That "get rich or die tryin" mentality has a lot to do with the issue at hand.
Well....how do you account for the fact that the black murder rate, per capita, was higher in the 70's before rap music was out and before "fatherless homes" exploded in the black community? Detroit became known as the "murder city" in the 70's. I guess it was the "Motown Sound" making black folks kill each other then....huh?
You guys are hell bent to turn symptoms into the cause to deflect and obfuscate attention away from the 3 ton elephant in the room. I get it....racism was inconsequential upon the black condition. We are the way we are, collectively, because of who we are and not what we have been through as a people. Got it....but you will not get me to accept it like you do...and such rationalizations should be properly labeled.....RACIST!!!! Yeah I know.....that is why you don't like to talk about race....because people are always too quick to label people making racist rationalizations and inferences as.....RACIST....go figure .
Last edited by Indentured Servant; 10-20-2013 at 01:37 PM..
Well....how do you account for the fact that the black murder rate, per capita, was higher in the 70's before rap music was out and before "fatherless homes" exploded in the black community? Detroit became known as the "murder city" in the 70's. I guess it was the "Motown Sound" making black folks kill each other then....huh?
You guys are hell bent to turn symptoms into the cause to deflect and obfuscate attention away from the 3 ton elephant in the room. I get it....racism was inconsequential upon the black condition. We are the way we are, collectively, because of who we are and not what we have been through as a people. Got it....but you will not get me to accept it like you do.
Bingo, thats really what they're getting at...and eventually, you're gonna get the ol obligatory "welp, everywhere you go in the world, where there is a significant population of blacks, there is high crime, poverty etc"...its all they can do to refrain from trotting out that little study they flash everytime about how black genes cause them to be more this or more that...lol...I think that coal guy or whatever has the right idea if anyone wants to make a base level argument that statistically young black males commit more violent crimes than other races of men. You wont hear the equally true statistic that black women also commit more crimes than their white female peers, but thats a story for a different day. But more importantly is that it is IMPERATIVE to these posters that they oversimplify the source of the problem and gloss over the frail framework of instability that the black community was founded upon in this country to the point that they've convinced blacks that the source of the problem is their innate predisposition rather than any history that has transpired.
You know what Ive always found funny? You'll hear these tea partiers (not that I have anything against tea partiers, I agree with a good deal of their ideology) ramble on and on about how the founders of the constitution did this, and our country's founders did that, or the country's forefathers did this...and OHH they'll rattle on about how: if it wasnt for the brave salt of the earth men who came over and built a country from nothing and helped it to adopt a constitution, that we wouldve never become the world's superpower. ALL of which I agree with..but whats funny, is that when black people's history comes into play, we are all supposed to kowtow to this notion that aside from the token figure for human rights that whites have allowed Martin Luther King to serve as, that the rest of black history is irrelevant. ONLY the good that MLK did is relevant to both history AND to today. The rest of it (specifically the negative, inhumane components) needs to be swept under the rug, deemed irrelevant at present, or glossed over entirely if ever mentioned.
That would be fine with me and all, except: we dont do that when we speak of the positive things whites did or endured to shape this country. We hale our founders for their positive contributions and we readily and routinely acknowledge how impactful those contributions were to history AND our politics and culture today. But suddenly black people are supposed to act like their own history, both good AND bad emerged last night from a Tupac and Biggie rap beef or something...Im like, what happened to all that talk of acknowledging our founders and our history and how it laid the framework for where we are today? That seems to only be acceptable when we're discussing the POSITIVE impacts of whites and white forefathers throughout this country's distant history. Otherwise, regarding the origins of blacks in this country, blacks are supposed to be naive enough to be convinced that their own distant history has nothing to do with their current situation..lol..Im like, whatever.
Last edited by soletaire; 10-20-2013 at 02:24 PM..
Ignoring the black population for now, test your theories out on the white population and see if they hold water. The out of wedlock birth rate of whites have tripled since the 60's. Hence, if out of wedlock births is your metric for "fatherless homes", then there has been a substantial increase in white fatherless homes since the 60's. Therefore, following your theory, where is the big rise in per capita rates of homicides among whites, since the 60's?
A key condition in scientific reasoning is that a claim or discovery be REPRODUCIBLE. Yet, when you apply your theory to the white population, it does not produce the effect that you say it is responsible for producing in the black population. Hence, your theory seems to be an example of coincidence or correlation without causation. Maybe the high rate of homicide and Fatherless homes are both SYMPTOMS of the same root causation.
Now....often times white violence is blamed on a "mental condition or breakdown". Has anyone ever thought to analyze the accrued impact of racism on blacks culturally and hence mentally? Does prolonged exposure to white society drive blacks crazy? You do not see blacks from Africa behaving like African Americans, statistically. Racism is like radiation. The longer you are exposed to it the more damage that it does culturally and mentally.
What you ignore is that my general belief about fatherless children is not the only aspect to the problem. The white culture (if we can paint with such a broad brush) is also not the same as black culture.
Aside from that, this notion of wanting to make racism the primary reason is absurd. Blacks in this country experienced much more racism back when slavery was brought to an end, over 150 years ago. Yet blacks still maintained a better culture and family cohesiveness then than they do today. Blacks of even 70 years ago would laugh at the notion of how hard it is for blacks today racism wise.
So trying to play the racism card just does not hold water as an excuse for criminal/murderous behavior in todays society.
Bingo, thats really what they're getting at...and eventually, you're gonna get the ol obligatory "welp, everywhere you go in the world, where there is a significant population of blacks, there is high crime, poverty etc"...its all they can do to refrain from trotting out that little study they flash everytime about how black genes cause them to be more this or more that...
You wont hear the equally true statistic that black women also commit more crimes than their white female peers, but thats a story for a different day.
But more importantly is that it is IMPERATIVE to these posters that they oversimplify the source of the problem
You bring up some interesting points. First of all, could we even have such discussions without the left wing liberals trying to shout down the rational discussion with accusations of racism?
It is widely accepted different races, cultures and ethnic groups have different tendencies and react to situations differently. Lets take a non controversial one.
A study was done to showed that Germans required the greatest amount of personal space(distance between people standing together) to feel comfortable, and I believe Brazilians needed the least. No one really gets upset because there is not a perceived slight against either group. However if you were to try and do a study that showed Germans were generally more intelligent than Brazilians you would be attacked and shouted down(even if it were true).
Yet these same people have no trouble saying a particular group is good at something, so long as you do not point out how they are bad at something else. They want to live in a dream world pretending that everyone is totally equal, and has the same capacities. This is especially true of the protection of minority groups where anything unflattering is attacked as racism.
As to more crime among black women, I think it is ignored compared to men because as a general rule, women are not as violent.
Lastly, I believe the over simplification is not on the part of people taking my position. Rather it is those who want to point to racism as the primary excuse for all the ills of black society today.
What you ignore is that my general belief about fatherless children is not the only aspect to the problem. The white culture (if we can paint with such a broad brush) is also not the same as black culture.
Is not culture a LEARNED behavior? Have not blacks been in this nation for over 3 centuries? Hence, how could a society, after 3 centuries, create two separate and unequal cultures within its midst? In other words, where did whites LEARN white culture? The answer is....FROM WHITE PEOPLE. Where did black people learn "black culture"? Again, the answer to that is FROM WHITE PEOPLE. The difference is in the way white people were treating black people relative to the way they were treating white people. Black peoples culture is more "dysfunctional" because the way white treated blacks in America was more dysfunctional than the way they treated whites. Furthermore, given that culture is LEARNED, the propensity of whites to move out when blacks moved in helped to incubate separate cultures and not allow blacks to learn and emulate the "superior" white culture, via immersion and acculturation via emulation.
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Aside from that, this notion of wanting to make racism the primary reason is absurd. Blacks in this country experienced much more racism back when slavery was brought to an end, over 150 years ago. Yet blacks still maintained a better culture and family cohesiveness then than they do today. Blacks of even 70 years ago would laugh at the notion of how hard it is for blacks today racism wise.
So trying to play the racism card just does not hold water as an excuse for criminal/murderous behavior in todays society.
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Well, first there is a different experience from RURAL living vs URBAN living. Up until the 60's the Majority of blacks were RURAL and small rural environments hold traditions better than urban environments, because there is not much else to do but get married, have kids, work the land and such. Those years were also not saturated with drugs and handguns either. The other thing that you have to realize is that the hyper racism created a hyper unifying impact upon black people. If earth was to be invaded and attacked by Martians, the effect would be that it would unify HUMANS like never before. Well....white folks were like invading Martians to black folks and that created STRONG unity and the NEED to look out for and protect one and other from the evils of white society. The decline of racism from its legal and more virulent form, therefore, resulted in a waning of black unity......which then allowed the exposure of many cultural and psychological damage that had been done from centuries of oppression. At the height of black unity and rebellion, the 60's, the FBI then declared that black militancy was the NUMBER ONE THREAT to the internal security of the nation. Not long after that, is when drugs started flooding into URBAN communities and it is at this juncture also that homicides rates started to rise radically.
Why was there a mass exodus of blacks from the South to the North? Its because staunch racism PUSHED blacks out and factory opportunities PULLED blacks in? Then how did the end up in segregated ghettos. When blacks moved in, WHITES MOVED OUT. Hence, since isolation creates INCUBATION of differences, white racism created the geography for separation that allowed the so-called "Black culture" to remain separate and unequal while whites full integrated with other whites, whether they be German, Irish, Polish, Italian or whatever creating the same CULTURE.
I think Sir Isac Newton should revise his theories. Every Action, besides white racism, creates an equal and opposite reaction. Only then does it make sense that over 300 years of the act of white racism has been......without REACTION.
Last edited by Indentured Servant; 10-20-2013 at 03:52 PM..
You bring up some interesting points. First of all, could we even have such discussions without the left wing liberals trying to shout down the rational discussion with accusations of racism?
It is widely accepted different races, cultures and ethnic groups have different tendencies and react to situations differently. Lets take a non controversial one.
A study was done to showed that Germans required the greatest amount of personal space(distance between people standing together) to feel comfortable, and I believe Brazilians needed the least. No one really gets upset because there is not a perceived slight against either group. However if you were to try and do a study that showed Germans were generally more intelligent than Brazilians you would be attacked and shouted down(even if it were true).
Yet these same people have no trouble saying a particular group is good at something, so long as you do not point out how they are bad at something else. They want to live in a dream world pretending that everyone is totally equal, and has the same capacities. This is especially true of the protection of minority groups where anything unflattering is attacked as racism.
As to more crime among black women, I think it is ignored compared to men because as a general rule, women are not as violent.
A point which I have conceded, yet, the issue here isnt whether black men are as violent as x group. The premise of the OP was that young black males disproportionately commit violent crime. And I said previously, and will say once again that disproportionate crime rates are disproportionate crime rates. If black women are only a sliver of the population, yet commit a disproportionate amount of violent crime rate in a 1 to 1 comparison with their white female compatriots, yet it is never brought to the fore, that tells me that the motive for this discussion isnt as pure as its being portrayed to be; and that the objective isnt truly to discuss disproportionate crime rates across the board, but to discuss disproportionate crime rates in an effort to vilify one specific subgroup.
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Lastly, I believe the over simplification is not on the part of people taking my position. Rather it is those who want to point to racism as the primary excuse for all the ills of black society today.
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I, like indentured servant, will have to agree to disagree on this one. I use the term 'oversimplify' because when people use the term racism as rationale for black underachievement, there is this tendency by people to immediately place blinders on, take a snapshot of where we are today, and apply that snapshot to the past and say that 'well see there, compared to way back when, blacks today have it made'. When truthfully, the way it was way back when was a level of unprecedented inhumane treatment THEN, which yes, makes the portrait we have of racism today, pale in comparison...yet doesnt negate the fact that it exists.
But lets say, theoretically, racism was a complete nonsequitur today. Ill buy that. When I use the term 'oversimplify', what Im really speaking of is this refusal to truly look at how each component of RACISM in this country's past, and how the way black history unfolded in decades prior because of it, has shaped today; basically the refusal to do anything other than gloss over those injustices, and then cherrypick comparisons to other oppressed ETHNIC or religious minorities as evidence of other minority groups excelling after oppression. Both you AND I said earlier that men commit more crime than women in general. We both have accepted this as a universal truth, at least within the context of american culture. On that premise, alone, we can deduce that if one is male at all, he wil commit a disproportionate amount of crime, since there are fewer men than women. Well, you can extract that SAME logic and apply it to any list of co-factors that will reveal how we arrive at the statistics we draw from for this discussion today. Each co-factor exponentiating the detrimental effect of the last.
Case in point - The reality is that the cause of disproportionate young black male violence is a few more universal truths combined: People who's parents were uneducated are less likely to be educated themselves. Young people commit more violence than elderly people. People who's parents werent in a stable relationship, are less likely to have stable, long term relationships themselves. People who's parents have been incarcerated are likely to become criminals subsequently. Poor people commit more unorganized violent crimes than wealthy people. Men in general commit more crime than women. Dense cities have more crime than rural areas. And fatherless males of any color are more prone to become criminals...and so on.
Of course there are exceptions to each of those inputs but if you are a poor, fatherless, male, the odds against you becoming a criminal arent in your favor no matter what race you are - solely based on those variables alone. Research how many black families were broken during slavery, and during Jim Crow era, how much more likely blacks were to wind up incarcerated solely due to racial profiling or even drug laws that are now being revisited, how much unemployment blacks faced due to racism in decades prior or because of aforementioned incarceration, or the origins of the underemphasis on education when blacks werent allowed to pursue education for generations. Multiply this by the number of generations it has been since blacks arrived in this country, and you get a very clear understanding of why black males are on a different path than other demos...or at least I do. But what many hear is a sob story all tied up in a neat little package with a bow labeled "Race Card" on it. Thats fine, because thats as convenient a cop-out for those who reject it as it is for those who use it. But you cant expect everybody to gloss over the impacts those aspect of humanity or inhumanity have on present day America, just because you (not literally you, but whoever subscribes to that ideology) choose to.
Last edited by soletaire; 10-20-2013 at 03:39 PM..
What is this thread REALLY about? Angels and demons? If so, which one is more powerful??
Looks like the black people [demons] are since in America it only takes a few of them, maybe even only One [president] to destroy the entire universe!! And to be so unilaterally powerful, that suggests to me an extremely elevated level of intelligence. Wow!! End of thread right?
You bring up some interesting points. First of all, could we even have such discussions without the left wing liberals trying to shout down the rational discussion with accusations of racism?
It is widely accepted different races, cultures and ethnic groups have different tendencies and react to situations differently. Lets take a non controversial one.
A study was done to showed that Germans required the greatest amount of personal space(distance between people standing together) to feel comfortable, and I believe Brazilians needed the least. No one really gets upset because there is not a perceived slight against either group. However if you were to try and do a study that showed Germans were generally more intelligent than Brazilians you would be attacked and shouted down(even if it were true).
Yet these same people have no trouble saying a particular group is good at something, so long as you do not point out how they are bad at something else. They want to live in a dream world pretending that everyone is totally equal, and has the same capacities. This is especially true of the protection of minority groups where anything unflattering is attacked as racism.
As to more crime among black women, I think it is ignored compared to men because as a general rule, women are not as violent.
Lastly, I believe the over simplification is not on the part of people taking my position. Rather it is those who want to point to racism as the primary excuse for all the ills of black society today.
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
Origin:
1865–70; < French racisme. See race2 , -ism
Yeah......Its widely accepted by RACIST!!!
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