The Big Fundamental Difference Between those For and Against Obamacare (Reagan, cost)

[sickofnyc]

Originally Posted by Delahanty

As usual, the point's missed that those who are capable of being producers rather than merely takers should be working. That may not fit the narrative you're trying to push about those cold, selfish, dismissive conservatives, but that's what's really being said.

Maybe you need to reboot your Kindle.

Maybe you need to reboot. The actual stats are not aligned with your Limbaugh talking point.

[jmking]

Originally Posted by debbie at bouontiful

If you ever lived for years in a single payer healthcare system (which I foresee here) you wouldn't say those things jmking. I came close to losing my daughter to that system. I lived 7 years under that system and it is horrible. It would be nice when the whole world is insured, too bad we will not have any doctors! I guess we should get everyone a nice house too while were at it.

House, car, boats and planes are much different than the delivery of health care. I'm a caretaker for my disabled wife who worked for 30 years for the worlds largest defense contractor in the DC area. When she became ill she was tossed to the curb along with her health insurance coverage. I know legions of people who are from and who have lived in other modern countries with a single payer system with supplemental coverage and loved it and would never trade for our horrible bankrupt system. So, tell us about your horrible experience and what country and what kind of system they have that almost killed your daughter? Our system almost killed my wife.

[jmking]

Originally Posted by Tassy001

That's what state/county funded hospitals and clinics are for.

How do you expect doctors and hopitals pay for the things necessary in treatment. I know student loans for doctors take decades to re-pay. I know the equipment hospitals have to buy are in the 6 figure range....for each piece of equipment. Not to mention the staff, doctors, nurses, processors, aides, housekeeping, etc. You have to eat to be able to survive. Should you be able to get food at what you can afford to pay? Doctors especially already have taken cuts in their pay, even before the ACA. Now they are expected to take more cuts? Are you willing to take a pay cut???

Welcome to the pay cutting club docs. You make the argument even more so for a single payer and don't realize it.

[sickofnyc]

Originally Posted by Proud2beAMom

There are ways that our society could fix that as well.. but that is for a different topic of discussion relating to education costs in this country .. and the burden that students of any degree take on when they leave school.. The rest of the free world has figured it out.. we are too busy pounding our chest declaring that we are #1 to notice we no longer are.. and too cocky to look at how the rest of the free world operates such things to learn something that could bring us to #1 again.. and heck mabye start leading the world in innovation again (in may ways, not just one)..


WE are a little too arragant about how 'great' we are to realize we are not so great anymore..... and the first thing to fixing it is having some humility , realizing that, and fixing it. Most of us liberals get this.. conservatives haven't..

Conservatives love their country - no doubt - but they love what we used to be without realizing we no longer are.. and we need to evolve in order to remain so great.

Liberals love their country.. and realize that we need to make some changes to get us back to the top.. and recognizing we are not so great doens't mean we don't love it.. which is why we fight so hard to change and fix what is broken about it.. We have humility about our country...

[Wapasha]

To summarize liberals on this topic, they know 0bamacare is bad law, they know the roll out is an epic disaster, but thru their liberal echo chamber they have convinced themselves that their opponents have never offered any alternative to the ACA, and their opponents hate people and want to see the sick and the poor simply die.

They have convinced themselves the ACA is the only option available to us, because the evil Wepubwicans never offered any plan, and if we left it up to them they would kill the poor, elderly and sick.

Alan Grayson epitomized liberals like these perfectly in 2009 when he said "This is what the Republicans want you to do. If you get sick America, the Republican health care plan is this: Die quickly!"

This is the warped reality liberals sink into in order for them to support the ACA and justify their outrageous falsehoods and ridiculous straw man arguments with Republicans, conservatives, et al.

Originally Posted by fumbling

This is exactly right. Notice all the naysayers offer no alternatives to improve ACA to single payer for example, they just want to get back to the old barbaric system of "it's a privilege" no matter how obsolete that thinking is in a modern civilized word. It's nice to see barbarism dying every day as ACA progresses. I completely agree ACA isn't perfect but is a start and can be tremendously improved, but only people who see healthcare as a right will fight to improve it; the people who see healthcare as a privilege will fight to end it rather than improve it. It is greatly satisfying to see people work to improve upon ACA like the good people in Vermont trying to implement single payer or various states doing a great job with online insurance exchanges and to see the naysayers for what they are, a barbaric minority that will start fading away as time passes.

You are being both ignorant and disingenuous, Republicans have offered health care bills as far back as two decades ago when Bob Dole offered his plan, Bush offered plans during his first term, and even John McCain was offering his own health care plan when running for president in 2008. You don't know about any alternatives because you are ignorant of them, have either not bothered to research them or you've conveniently forgotten all about them.

I've been down this road with ignorant liberals before, they will not admit they were wrong by claiming Republicans never offered ANY health care plans, instead of admitting they were wrong they will just deflect by being critical of the republican plans that they just got done claiming never existed. The Republicans have been offering multiple health care bills for decades.

Originally Posted by Proud2beAMom

I feel that the biggest difference, what it all boils down to is this:

Those of us for the ACA (and particularly those that would have liked a one payer system) see access to health care as a right NOT a privilege.

Wow, that is one hell of a ludicrous straw man you have there.

Your entire opening statement is ignorant. Just because I do not like the ACA does not mean I don't think people have the right to access health care, and it sure as hell does not mean I think we need to actively deny health care access to people. . What the hell kind of idiocy is that!???


Time and again you folks create a straw man that is absurd and removed from reality, and yet you set it up as if it represents all of those who oppose your views, and then spend days beating the poor imaginary straw man to death. Well, have fun beating that ridiculous straw man, because it's representative of nothing and no one.

[Mircea]

Originally Posted by Proud2beAMom

As for poor people....

Basically, this is just one gigantic Butt/Breast-Implant Envy thread. Someone has bigger, better, nicer butt and breast implants than you, and you're jealous as hell.

Originally Posted by Proud2beAMom

There are ways that our society could fix that as well.. but that is for a different topic of discussion relating to education costs in this country ..

You do not understand the education process in other States.

Like most, you're ignorant and uninformed. What you see is people attending university for "free."

What you don't see is what those people went through to get there.

Judging from your writing-style, I'd say that had you been born in Germany, you would have failed the 6th Grade Test and been sent into the low track, and then you would not have scored high enough on the 8th Grade Test to obtain advanced vocational training, and that your educational career would have ended at age 16....you do understand that most Europeans are graduated at age 16, right?

Probably not.

Originally Posted by bUU

Huh? 4 years? What about 20 years?

What about the US Constitution?

Healthcare since its inception is intra-State Commerce.

Congress has no power or authority over intra-State Commerce.

If you do doubt, then might I suggest you educate yourself and read the Supreme Court's ruling on Obamacare.....

.....because the Supreme Court said healthcare is intra-State Commerce and Congress has no power or authority.

Even if that wasn't true....

The United States is to the European Union as California is to Germany.

Originally Posted by sickofnyc

There are exceptions to everything.

Those are not exceptions, those are the rules.

Healthcare is governed by the Laws of Economics, and when you constantly violate those laws, then people die on waiting lists.

Originally Posted by Aldous9

the GOP was against social security

That's a false statement.

Republicans supported social security......35 States (out of 48 States) in the united States had social security programs, and Republicans set up the very first social security program.

FDR as governor of New York, copied a social security program from a Republican governor and set it up in New York.

Republicans were ardent supporters of social security......however, Republicans did not support the federal government taking over the social security programs of those 35 States and destroying them.

Originally Posted by Aldous9

the GOP was against medicare and medicaid

"Introduced by various House and Senate sponsors and subject to extensive hearings, the basic framework of part A began to reflect accommodations between the sponsors, the Administration and the American Hospital Association (AHA).

It ranged all the way from principles of institutional reimbursement, which has been pretty thoroughly already worked out in a general way for their own purposes between Blue Cross and the Hospital Association over a period of several years

The American Hospital Association has already nominated the Blue Cross organization for its membership, although some member hospitals will undoubtedly elect out of this arrangement. We have proceeded very far in the development of working arrangements with Blue Cross, although no formal approval as a fiscal intermediary has yet been given them."

Source: Report to Social Security Administration Staff on the Implementation of the Social Security Amendments of 1965, Robert M. Ball Commissioner, November 15, 1965

That's why.

Medicare and Medicaid were doomed to failure. You listened to a Special Interest Group like the American Hospital Association, and they screwed you over. They also wrote most of Obamacare, and screwed you over again.

The American Hospital Association gave....

$779 Million to Obama for America 2008
$260 Million to DNC 2008
$428 Million to RNC 2008

Source: American Hospital Association Pac (2008 Election) - US Campaign Committees

Originally Posted by Aldous9

the GOP is against raising the minimum wage with inflation

What kind of Inflation?

Wage Inflation? I sure hope not, because that would be stupid.

There are 1,539 separately functioning economies in the US. Which one should the minimum wage increased?

In some of those 1,539 separately functioning economies you are not allowed to qualify for tax-payer funded HUD housing if you are single and your annual income is $9,101.

But, in some of those 1,539 separately functioning economies you qualify for tax-payer funded HUD housing if you are single and your annual income is $53,490.

Why don't you explain to everyone why there some single Americans qualify at $53,490 while others are rejected for having an income of $9,101?

Can you do that?

Originally Posted by Aldous9

the GOP is now against doing anything about global warming

There is no global warming.

Originally Posted by lionking

I actually agree with Proud2beaMom's philosophy, if you are bleeding to death or seriously ill you don't have the luxury to ask for a price quote

Thank you for admitting that you are clueless about the Free Market Economic System.

Originally Posted by Votre_Chef

No. There's 12.5% on private health insurance in Germany.

And what percent does the employer pay?

I wouldn't want anyone to think that you are intentionally misrepresenting things by falsely suggesting that the German system is funded solely by employees.

After you determine what the employer pays, go to this link....

Employment-Population Ratio in Germany (DEUEPRNA) - FRED - St. Louis Fed

....and tell me what you see.

Germany has a low Employment-to-Population Ratio....that is another "hidden" cost of their healthcare system....fewer people working due to the fact that fewer jobs exist due to their high tax rates.

Originally Posted by Proud2beAMom

simple.. we equate healthcare to the right to our life..

My right to Free Speech costs you nothing....

....how much does your "right" to healthcare cost me?

Not even amused....

Mircea

[BigJon3475]

Originally Posted by Proud2beAMom

Liberals love their country.. and realize that we need to make some changes to get us back to the top.. and recognizing we are not so great doens't mean we don't love it.. which is why we fight so hard to change and fix what is broken about it.. We have humility about our country...

Liberals love themselves which is why they actually believe their hubris and high rhetoric. Asked to prove that they can pay for their wild fantasies and they either shut TFU or steal money from others expecting no consequences from their criminal like activities.

Either way they're FUBAR and to the extent of how FUBAR they are they're more than willing to drag every single person they've every known, will know and dreamed of knowing into their pathetic little existence.

[Proud2beAMom]

Originally Posted by BigJon3475

Liberals love themselves which is why they actually believe their hubris and high rhetoric. Asked to prove that they can pay for their wild fantasies and they either shut TFU or steal money from others expecting no consequences from their criminal like activities.

Either way they're FUBAR and to the extent of how FUBAR they are they're more than willing to drag every single person they've every known, will know and dreamed of knowing into their pathetic little existence.

I love myself.

I also have love for my fellow man..

Unlike conservatives who love ONLY themselves with no room for love for someone or something else outside their world..

I'll even go so far as to say I have love for you... even though you have contempt for me because of it..

I want the best for everyone... not just myself...

[Little-Acorn]

Originally Posted by Proud2beAMom

Unlike conservatives who love ONLY themselves with no room for love for someone or something else outside their world..

I see the liberals still can only support their government-uber-alles agenda by employing character assassination and telling lies about the opposition.

It's one of the most common signs that they cannot justify their own schemes.

[JimRom]

Originally Posted by Proud2beAMom

I love myself.

I also have love for my fellow man..

Unlike conservatives who love ONLY themselves with no room for love for someone or something else outside their world..

I'll even go so far as to say I have love for you... even though you have contempt for me because of it..

I want the best for everyone... not just myself...

And that's the crux of the matter. Who decides what is best for everyone? You? Me? The state government? The federal government? And what happens to those who don't agree with whomever makes the decision? Are they to be forced to subject themselves to something that they feel is not best for them?

Your final sentence is a shining example of why I disagree with modern day liberalism. There is no "what's best for everyone." It doesn't exist. But in your utopian world, the all-powerful government is qualified to decide what's best for everyone anyway.