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Yes, yes, yes. You're the only one who understands.
Cloak your bigotry and discrimination in religious terms all you want, but it's still bigotry and discrimination.
A lot of people really don't care what you or anyone else thinks is a sin. I personally don't believe in any such thing, but you have no right to deny me a service just because YOU believe everything's a sin.
I'll bet the baker sells cakes to people who defile themselves at night. That's a sin, too.
Funny how some Christians only play the Sin Card when it comes to homosexuality.
Make all of the baseless assumptions you want to .. but I'm a very outspoken person, and brutally honest. If my opinion was based on religious beliefs, I'd not hesitate a second to say so. But my opinion has nothing to do with religious beliefs, since I'm not religious in the sense you're insinuating.
My opinion has been stated clearly .. you can believe or disbelieve as you wish. I have given you enough very simple and easy to compare examples where what you advocate is detrimental to your own best interests as well as everyone else's.
But this seems to be a prerequisite for joining then club of liberalism, as virtually every position you all take is either self destructive, or in direct conflict with common sense.
No, you don't get it. My comments were directed at your shallow understanding of Christianity and what Jesus said. I simply added that they - the gays - were not acting in accordance with his teachings as you incorrectly indicated they - in your incomplete understanding - should do. Think how you indicated that they were following HIS teachings, by treating the baker as they supposedly been treated by him. By getting back at him. That is 100% contrary to Jesus' teachings. Jesus explicitly taught when wronged to turn the other cheek, to forgive and to love your enemy or she who has wronged you. Matthew 5:39 -41.
So, 'getting back at, or treating' the baker ill is hardly a Christian response, as you suggest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjrose
The couple are not the ones CLAIMING to be following Christian beliefs. The baker, who refused services based on his Christian beliefs. is the one claiming to be a "good Christian".
Maybe someone should explain the do unto others thing to the baker.
No, you don't get it. My comments were directed at your shallow understanding of Christianity and what Jesus said. I simply added that they - the gays - were not acting in accordance with his teachings as you incorrectly indicated they - in your incomplete understanding - should do. Think how you indicated that they were following HIS teachings, by treating the baker as they supposedly been treated by him. By getting back at him. That is 100% contrary to Jesus' teachings. Jesus explicitly taught when wronged to turn the other cheek, to forgive and to love your enemy or she who has wronged you. Matthew 5:39 -41.
So, 'getting back at, or treating' the baker ill is hardly a Christian response, as you suggest.
No, I was indicating that the "Christian" baker that was violating the law, because of his Christian beliefs, should have acted in a more Christian manner. You know do unto other? Love your neighbor? Do not judge?
That BAKER is the one professing to be a Christian, and yet doesn't seem to know those basic principals. The gay couple never professed to be Christian, and I have no idea if they are or not.
I'll try typing more slowly, so you can understand.
Ben can deny a KKK group, as they are not protected under anti discrimination laws.
IF Ben enters into a contract with the KKK group, he can not deny the contracted service or he is in breech of contract.
A gay printer can deny printing objectionable material from an anti gay group, because anti gay groups are not protected under anti discrimination laws, neither is objectionable material. They could not deny printing services to a christian church group for their weekly meeting just because they are Christians.
A baker can refuse to make a penis cake for a gay man if he does not make penis cakes. He can not deny the service of making a wedding cake if he offers wedding cakes simply because the person is gay.
Now let me type slowly so that you might understand .... there was no such thing as a "protected" group other than the various religious groups ... not even women were protected ... until they were. The KKK could become a "protected group" with the same ease as any other group could be added to a list. Did you know that there are efforts underway, supported by a significant group within the psychiatric community to label pedophelia as a "sexual orientation"? What pray tell does that have to do with this? Well, if child molesters can become a protected class, then it's not such a stretch to consider the possibility that the KKK could be too.
In the case of pedophiles being recognized as a sexual orientation, they would enjoy protection just as homosexuals do, including employment discrimination. How would you like the government to force the daycare center where your children are cared for to employ pedophiles? Who knows, maybe you are sooooooo open minded you'd be ok with that. Most people would have enough sense not to be.
This is just another example of the unentended consequences liberals apparently can't forsee, even though they are rather obvious. And it demonstrates the foolishness of crafting such laws that have such broad implications, without considering the negative impact.
Government has no business, and no just power to make these decisions that should remain in the hands of each individual and each business to decide. What ever good excuse you can come up with, I can show you 10 negative consequences that far outweigh any benefit.
Well "implied" vs "part of the application" was the crux of my comments.
There is no wording on the LLC, Articles of incorporation, business license, permits, etc.
Discrimination laws are city, state, federal.
So you are familiar with the business permit applications of every single city and municipality in the entire United States?
Yes it does, and it is much too obvious to deny. So, just disagree and say his religiou beliefs can be dismissed. In other words, be honest.
Some Christians feel very strongly that marriage is a holy union between a man and a woman ONLY ... and that such unions between same sex partners is contrary to their beliefs. So, yes, making a wedding cake for a same sex couple would obviously be at odds with such beliefs. You can certainly disagree with that belief, but you can't say the belief doesn't exist, or does not apply.
Now let me type slowly so that you might understand .... there was no such thing as a "protected" group other than the various religious groups ... not even women were protected ... until they were. The KKK could become a "protected group" with the same ease as any other group could be added to a list. Did you know that there are efforts underway, supported by a significant group within the psychiatric community to label pedophelia as a "sexual orientation"? What pray tell does that have to do with this? Well, if child molesters can become a protected class, then it's not such a stretch to consider the possibility that the KKK could be too.
In the case of pedophiles being recognized as a sexual orientation, they would enjoy protection just as homosexuals do, including employment discrimination. How would you like the government to force the daycare center where your children are cared for to employ pedophiles? Who knows, maybe you are sooooooo open minded you'd be ok with that. Most people would have enough sense not to be.
This is just another example of the unentended consequences liberals apparently can't forsee, even though they are rather obvious. And it demonstrates the foolishness of crafting such laws that have such broad implications, without considering the negative impact.
Government has no business, and no just power to make these decisions that should remain in the hands of each individual and each business to decide. What ever good excuse you can come up with, I can show you 10 negative consequences that far outweigh any benefit.
Pedophiles and child molesters are not always the same thing. A person ATTRACTED to children is a pedophile even if they have never touched a child. There is a difference between someone who has an attraction, but has not broken any laws, and a person that has broken the law by molesting a child.
why should someone that has broken no law be punished?
IF you have a problem with state and federal anti discrimination laws, then you can go try to get them repealed. I have a feeling that you won't be very successful. Good luck with that.
IF you guys feel that religious beliefs should be allowed to break laws, and have special protections, then I am starting my own religion, that says that I have to break every law that I disagree with. Then I can claim religious persecution, or freedom of religion. Maybe I will make it part of my religion that I have to raise pigs in a residential neighbor, right next door to your house. Or maybe my religious beliefs are that nudity is next to godliness, so roaming the town naked will be practicing my religion. How about speed limits are from the devil, and I must not follow them.
Anyone can create any religious beliefs that they want. I can even get ordained online for $25. Call me grand poo bah of the church of JJRose.
Thanks for the breakdown of Colorado law ... but the issue is not what the law says, but whether the law is appropriate and constitutional .... there are many laws that run afoul to the principles of the constitution. And of course, you appear to be knowledgable enough to understand that statutory law does not and cannot supercede constitutional law, yes?
While on the subject of protected classes ... the one class that is SPECIFICALLY protected under the constitution is freedom of relgion. In the case of the Christian baker who claims that his religious beliefs prohibit him from making a "gay wedding cake" is supportable and documentable, as there are prohibitions on homosexuality in the bible. I'm not defending that, nor an I agreeing or disagreeing with the person'ss claim that it violates his religious beliefs to make that cake ... I'm just pointing out that there is supporting evidence for that claim.
Consequently, he should not be forced to do what he feels violates his religous beliefs, because they are protected, and no statutory law can override that. Furthermore, I think it safe to assume that common law is violated by anti-discrimation laws that force unwilling parties to engage in commerce against their will, which in my opiniom an even more important principle of freedom, because you cannot destroy the fundamentals of free association, and especially when it comes to your own labor. You either own your labor, or you don't ..... and if you don't own it, you are a slave.
I contend that you cannot have a just and free society comprised of slaves.
Luckily, the state of Colorado, and The US, as a federal governing body, is not beholden to Levitical law; otherwise, a significant portion of the country's population would now be dead via communal stoning, or some other barbaric ancient ritual.
As for Colorado's anti-discrimination act, you could probably contact one of those multi-million dollar mega-churches in Colorado Springs, and convince them to pay for a constitutional challenge to the law. Maybe they could even take a crack at the 1964 Civil Rights Act, obviously unconstitutional by your definition.
You are free to discriminate in regards to with whom you choose to personally associate. You are not free to violate anti-discrimination laws, as a business, in the offering of public accommodation---not complex, and not a constitutional issue.
Perhaps your best option is to gather a group of like-minded individuals, and elect politicians who will pass laws which sanction bigotry and hatred--all in the name of religious freedom, of course!
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