America Without a Middle Class

[FabianS]

Originally Posted by ErikBEggs

Progressivism... believed by the right wing to advocate higher taxes on the rich and "redistribution of wealth" caused... this?

Yes, Progressive Keynesian free money at the Fed largely caused that.

Also high taxes caused that because thanks to the 60%+ tax rates(after everything is factored) you have to be ridiculously wealthy just to start a business anymore, so obviously the ridiculously wealthy are getting wealthier and the middle class is lucky to have jobs.

[FabianS]

Originally Posted by ErikBEggs

So that they can subsidize your high income? You earn a lot, so are you rightfully obligated to pay less as a percentage of income than someone poorer than you..?

The Soviet model is a horrible idea. People simply stop giving a sh8t about working or move a to less hellish country if you do that which leads to the entire country turning into a dump.

What we really need is a CONSUMPTION tax which would apply when you bought anything. Obviously the wealthy would pay far more than the rest, but those who were frugal could also keep/reinvest more of their money.

[momonkey]

Originally Posted by 60sfemi

We liberals have in no way have attempted to end the lower classes. That simply isn't possible, there is not a path to that happening in this country or any other country. We believe in a strong middle class, and ways and means to pull yourself up the ladder into the middle class. We do believe in helping the elderly, sick, children, the disabled and to provide the basics our country has believed in for decades, education and health and the ability to retire when our bodies give out. To go from middle class, either the lower working middle class, or the double income upper middle class is entirely up to the individual. No one needs to bail out the middle class, only keep things equitable with living wages and jobs. Why would you be against such simplicity. Are you so wealthy you think you owe nothing to the world you live in?

"Living wages and jobs"?



us-china relations act of 2000, 2000








Bill Clinton signs NAFTA into law -- December 8, 1993 - YouTube





We compete for manufacturing jobs with Chinese peasants who earn $3006/yr.


Low Fed funds rates and QE keep interest rates low and stimulates investment that often competes with labor.



If I wanted to deliberately destroy the US job market, I couldn't imagine any better policies to accomplish that goal than the ones now being employed under the guise of improving it.


Things are not always as they seem.


Democrats have known since Roosevelt that a bad economy is a Democrat's best friend and the voters are too stupid to understand that they are being lied to.

[Volobjectitarian]

To sort of answer the rhetorical question pwnmdk keeps asking - the "middle class" is never really defined, but that's intentional. If it was defined, it would have specific set of parameters, legislation could be weighed against how well the law addresses those parameters, ideas for "solutions" could be evaluated against the framework, etc. In other words, a politician could be graded on how well they serve this amorphous thing called "the middle class." Since politicians do not like having their job performance evaluated against hard criteria, they prefer to leave the concept nebulous as possible, speaking in rhetorical platitudes that all us common folk can parse and argue about while they ponder lofty things in their ivory towers.

Elizabeth Warren talks about credit card default, but is careful to leave out how much default happens in the top income quintile. She talks about living paycheck to paycheck, lack of secure retirement and dwindling job prospects, but leaves out just how much this affects the top income quintile. Right now you may be thinking "yeah, so what if rich people went nuts on credit cards or bought more house than they can afford. They should know better." And you'd be right to think that way, but the thing is, that same lack of sympathy should extend to the folks in every other income quintile as well, because economic struggles like inability to pay credit cards, being behind/defaulting on mortgages and not having enough saved for retirement are all CHOICES, regardless of what income quintile you have gotten yourself into.

So these rants about "the disapeearing middle class" end up being cliche class warfare "punish the rich" nonsense and a deflection from the simple fact that people living out on the margin are honked off about the margin being called. Nobody forced 1 in 9 Americans to get a credit card much less outspend the ability to pay those cards. The government told lenders to be nicer with lending rules so more people could borrow, and the simple fact is that there is a segment of every income quintiles population that simply is not responsible enough to handle their own business, and now the tab is due in a world decidedly less hedonistic about finances. Have some people profited by taking advantage of this collusion between government and the weakness inherent in human nature? Sure, but that isn't something an educated, working upper class person needs to be punished for. Hell, nobody needs to be punished for it generally, minus the person making bad choices being punished by the consequences of their own actions.

And if we went back and examined the real middle class of the nostalgic 50s and early 60s, there was a reason there was more security:

• Government had yet to meddle with health care and call it Medicare.
• The average middle class family lived in 1400 sq ft or less, had one car, no AC, worked 50 hours per week, had a shorter lifespan, took less vacation, STAYED MARRIED (number one economic indicator common to success), had no credit cards, and saved way more personally. Nobody had yet informed these folks they were deserving of a Park avenue lifestyle on a union assembly line worker's pay, and here's a credit card to go buy it. They had yet to get that memo.
• The United States had no 1st World economic equal because the rest of the 1st World was still rebuilding from WW II.

So you had a country with no economic equal, people living cheaper, simpler lives, and a much less bothersome and intrusive government. There's your golden era of 50s middle class nostalgia. You need all three, so what does Senator Warren suggest to recapture the middle class? Make everyone live in homes they can actually afford? Only have one car and wait until you can pay cash for it to buy it? Take away everyone's credit cards? Reduce the size, bother and intrusiveness of government? Or should we just once again destroy the industrial power of the rest of the world, leaving consumer demand in place with us as the only nation that can fill it? Nope, just tax rich people more, print more money and give it away (thus taxing everyone with inflation), and make speeches with undefined lofty platitudes...oh, and champion naturalizing 25 million lawbreakers to put even more downward pressure on low and middle incomes...because with the 40-50 million labor surplus already in existence, adding 25 million more will help out a bunch!!

[texdav]

Basically middle class numbers are gaining not being loss. But of course that is worldwide. What middle class is different in what it cost in different countries as well as states and if locally within a state. Its like the price of the same house. for example having purchasing power to buy what 50's middle class could would mean your likely even lower than middle class now especially if it include government provided things not available then.

[dreamofmonterey]

Topic is American Middle Class, not worldwide.
NAFTA clearly has a big hand in this problem. So what's the solution.

Who's bringing jobs back to the US????

Who is working to bring manufacturing or jobs back?

RE market is irrelevant. JOBS.