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there is also the theory that at the end of a black hole is a white hole where everything that falls into a black hole eventually passes through and is pushed out the white hole somewhere else, in space, time, or dimension, or all three.
True, that was Einstein's solution to getting around the problem of destroying information. He simply invented "white holes," which have never been observed. That was the biggest problem with GR, it contradicts the law of conservation with regard to singularities.
If there was no singularity, as Hawking suggests, then there is no need for "white holes" or other dimensions. All information that passes the event horizon would eventually be released through Hawking radiation. According to QM, all matter that passes the event horizon hits a "firewall" and is reduced to a quark-gluon plasma. Maybe a more appropriate name for "black holes" would be "quark stars."
A lot of what once was sci fi is now reality. Star trek wasn't just about space travel and aliens though, a lot of star trek was looking inward at humanity. I love the series it combined action, characters, science and theoretical science, space and also questions and issues about humanity.
Now there are people in the millions with their own flip open "communicator", Laptops and touch screen tablets that was sci fi back in the original ST series. Whether humanity will evder travel the speed or faster than light, who knows but I wouldn't discount anything.
A lot of what once was sci fi is now reality. Star trek wasn't just about space travel and aliens though, a lot of star trek was looking inward at humanity. I love the series it combined action, characters, science and theoretical science, space and also questions and issues about humanity.
Now there are people in the millions with their own flip open "communicator", Laptops and touch screen tablets that was sci fi back in the original ST series. Whether humanity will evder travel the speed or faster than light, who knows but I wouldn't discount anything.
Traveling faster than the speed of light is quite impossible, nothing with mass can travel faster than light. However, there may be other means to travel vast distances in a short periods of time, such as warping space/time itself. Space/time is the only thing capable of moving faster than the speed of light.
Or Einstein could just have been as he was many times in his life wrong. However on the Event Horizon itself, I can't see any specific application that would have led to us having anything more terrible than the atomic bomb, and Old Al was certainly involved in the Manhattan Project, only as a consultant, but he was still involved.
Perhaps. He was "different" after the Nuclear Age.
That's an observation, not a criticism.
Read what he wrote and what he said in interviews before and after. He's "different." It's like he regretted letting the genie out of the bottle. I wouldn't be surprised if he scrambled the puzzle so it takes longer to put the picture together.
Then again, maybe he was just plain wrong like you said.
We may never know one way or another.
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Originally Posted by lionking
Just can't agree with that Mircea. To me scientists have much more worth than any politician or president....
I would not beg to differ.....1 scientist is more valuable than 50 Million politicians (dead or alive).
Let me ask you this....if government pulled the plug, would the private sector fill the void by stepping up to fund their research?
Understand I'm not suggesting that we have a Litmus Test, or that scientific research has no value unless the private sector is willing to fund it, but somewhere down the line, choices have to be made. Research requires Capital, and that is cash and it's limited, plus competing with other resources and research, and then there's the Opportunity Costs.
At what point do you say, "Stop staring at Black Holes, already."
Because the money you waste staring at Black Holes could be used to develop a propulsion system that could send a probe to a Black Hole in your life-time, so that you could study it more efficiently.
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Originally Posted by lionking
Some scientists believe black holes are doorways to other dimensions.
Yeah, well, maybe behind Door #3 to Dimension #11 is an alternative to the combustion engine.
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Originally Posted by rbohm
so i guess the fact that we have found over 1000 planets so far mean nothing to you?
Orbiting a Pulsar? Yeah, like that's really teeming with life.
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Originally Posted by rbohm
... or the fact that planets are hard to find means nothing to you?
Well, then stop looking for planets in galaxies and star clusters that are 12.7 Million Light Years away. There's 1,000+ G and K Class Stars within 50 Light-Years of Earth....what's so wrong with looking there?
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Originally Posted by rbohm
and why shouldnt study black holes and also look for other extra solar planets? both increae out understanding of how things work, and both require new technologies, and those technologies overlap so its not like we have to develop two different technologies simultaneously.
In a Perfect World you'd probably have the money and resource to do both.
At least we got Velcro out of the Apollo Program....
Traveling faster than the speed of light is quite impossible, nothing with mass can travel faster than light. However, there may be other means to travel vast distances in a short periods of time, such as warping space/time itself. Space/time is the only thing capable of moving faster than the speed of light.
Hello Glitch I remember recently a episode of "though the wormhole" saying and explaining exactly that. Funny that again the the term "warp" comes up as this is again from Star Trek yet is being discussed by scientists now.
Glad to see reading the thread that there are many who have interest in this , many who are educated in this way much more than I am, that inspires me to know more myself.
I can't debate whether Hawkins is wrong or not I just don't know am not schooled enough to debate on this but I do know that people like Hawkins are important and the quest to learn "how the universe works" is not junk or a waste of money.
Perhaps. He was "different" after the Nuclear Age.
That's an observation, not a criticism.
Read what he wrote and what he said in interviews before and after. He's "different." It's like he regretted letting the genie out of the bottle. I wouldn't be surprised if he scrambled the puzzle so it takes longer to put the picture together.
Then again, maybe he was just plain wrong like you said.
We may never know one way or another.
I would not beg to differ.....1 scientist is more valuable than 50 Million politicians (dead or alive).
Let me ask you this....if government pulled the plug, would the private sector fill the void by stepping up to fund their research?
Understand I'm not suggesting that we have a Litmus Test, or that scientific research has no value unless the private sector is willing to fund it, but somewhere down the line, choices have to be made. Research requires Capital, and that is cash and it's limited, plus competing with other resources and research, and then there's the Opportunity Costs.
At what point do you say, "Stop staring at Black Holes, already."
Because the money you waste staring at Black Holes could be used to develop a propulsion system that could send a probe to a Black Hole in your life-time, so that you could study it more efficiently.
Yeah, well, maybe behind Door #3 to Dimension #11 is an alternative to the combustion engine.
Orbiting a Pulsar? Yeah, like that's really teeming with life.
Well, then stop looking for planets in galaxies and star clusters that are 12.7 Million Light Years away. There's 1,000+ G and K Class Stars within 50 Light-Years of Earth....what's so wrong with looking there?
In a Perfect World you'd probably have the money and resource to do both.
At least we got Velcro out of the Apollo Program....
Mircea
Maybe if you could tell us what planet YOUR from, we could expedite this whole discovery process. Because the fact that this thread went from Hawking to NASA money wasting and the advent of velcro suggests just that. Here on planet earth, in this deeply convoluted thread of which the OP is struggling to keep on track (drifting off about CERN and wasting money even though we don't pay for it, etc), is crashing and burning like the Challenger shuttle.
I would not beg to differ.....1 scientist is more valuable than 50 Million politicians (dead or alive).
Let me ask you this....if government pulled the plug, would the private sector fill the void by stepping up to fund their research?
Understand I'm not suggesting that we have a Litmus Test, or that scientific research has no value unless the private sector is willing to fund it, but somewhere down the line, choices have to be made. Research requires Capital, and that is cash and it's limited, plus competing with other resources and research, and then there's the Opportunity Costs.
At what point do you say, "Stop staring at Black Holes, already."
Because the money you waste staring at Black Holes could be used to develop a propulsion system that could send a probe to a Black Hole in your life-time, so that you could study it more efficiently.
...
Mircea
I don't know. I don't know if the private sector would fill the void because frankly I don't know how much the government funds research right now or how much it is funded privately as is I'll have to google it and learn. I would like to think that the private sector would fill in, because I would like to believe that humanity thinks it a important quest with a payback from the investment with knowledge not necessarily just a payback in financial gain but given humanity's system of wanting financial reward as a prime motivator hard to say.
Which leads again to the sad remark said earlier about how a lot of human technological advancement has come out war and strife like the space race to the moon just to beat a fellow human adversary. I think standing on the moon one might tend to look back at the Earth and just see "home" more than ones country or political affiliation.
Hello Glitch I remember recently a episode of "though the wormhole" saying and explaining exactly that. Funny that again the the term "warp" comes up as this is again from Star Trek yet is being discussed by scientists now.
Glad to see reading the thread that there are many who have interest in this , many who are educated in this way much more than I am, that inspires me to know more myself.
I can't debate whether Hawkins is wrong or not I just don't know am not schooled enough to debate on this but I do know that people like Hawkins are important and the quest to learn "how the universe works" is not junk or a waste of money.
I completely agree that attempting to understand our universe is not a waste of time or money. I am really looking forward to the deployment of the James Webb Space Telescope in 2018. That will really open up the universe to us.
I also cannot debate whether Hawking is right or not, but you can be certain a lot of people who can determine whether he is right or not will be reviewing his work.
In case you are interested, there is a regular visitor to the Science & Technology forum, Space sub-forum, on City-Data who is a theoretical physicist. He started a thread entitled "Ask Me About the Universe" where you can ask any question you like, and he will do his best to answer it in layman's terms.
Actually, that is precisely what Hawkings is saying, that there are no such thing as singularities where information is lost. The law of conservation is a basic law of physics. Which means that GR has always been wrong since it concludes that information must be destroyed by the singularity.
Actually that's precisely what I'm saying too. Is a singularity that does not lose information not a singularity?
Hawking has said there is no information lost since he resolved the disconnect between QT and GR with Hawking radiation. Today his announcement attempts to resolve the EH firewall issue
GR made no statements about whether information was lost or not because General relativity did not deal with information, but matter, it only stated that what crossed the event horizon we no longer had access to. Quantum General Relativity has been trying to resolve the issue for many years, Classical GR doesn't care because retention of wavefunctions isn't fundamental to GR, and as long as mass and energy are conserved then there is no fracture in the theory the fracture only occurs when you consider quantum wavefunctions.
Much like Newtonian mechanics doesn't care about relativistic effects because at the velocities, gravitational fields etc. that the objects are interacting within there is no sufficient deviation from the Newtonian frame. However once you achieve sufficient velocity and/or gravity Newtonian mechanics do not function as predicted.
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Originally Posted by Glitch
There also was no such thing as an "apparent horizon" until Hawking invented the term.
Hawking and Penrose previously discussed the possibility at Oxford IIRC it was discussed from the fallout of their 1965 Penrose-Hawking Singularity Theorems (so think early 70's). I might be wrong since it predates my existence (never mind my degree). So while you could be correct that Hawking invented the term, it was a while ago and others have used it prior to this announcement.
Booth also discusses the apparent horizon in his "Black Hole Boundaries" paper in a 2005 edition of the Canadian Journal of Physics, and Wald and Iyer discuss them in "Trapped Surfaces in the Schwarzchild Geometry and Cosmic Censorship" paper 1991.
All I said was it resurrects the concept that they [apparent and event horizons] are not coincident and one or the other may not physically exist, or they may be coincident.
You probably are unaware of it because it's never been in any form "popular physics", because it does not lead to B-grade Sci-Fi movies, or capture peoples imagination.
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Originally Posted by Glitch
Quantum mechanics is the only solution that allows all information to be retained and eventually released through Hawking radiation, albeit not in the same condition that it went in.
Besides the loss of information, as suggested by GR, it also says that there is no difference between normal space and the event horizon of a black hole. That one could pass the point of no return and not even be aware. Whereas QM says that everything that passes the event horizon hits a "firewall" and is turned into a quark-gluon plasma soup.
Hawking's solution offers a third non-contradictory alternative.
I've already covered General relativity above. Information in the form of wavefunctions is fundamental to Quantum Theory, mass and energy are fundamental to General relativity.
Hawkings solution offers a resolution of the EH Firewall by eliminating it (the event horizon), however we don't know the fallout to the specifics. Hawking has been wrong before, a number of times.
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Originally Posted by Glitch
Lastly, it was DARPA that invented the Internet in 1968, not CERN. CERN (specifically Tim Berners-Lee) developed the World Wide Web, HTTP, and HTML protocols.
Which would make CERN part of the conglomerate that made the Internet would it not? TCP/IP isn't much use without the HTTP protocol and some markup language for text formatting.
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