Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I get so tired of hearing about how Crimea doesn't have the right to secede from Ukraine. I get tired of hearing about international law(as if such a thing really exists or is useful), or whatever other argument made against secession. It ignores the fundamental question, why do governments even exist?
If we understand that in reality, the sole purpose of government is to provide justice. Then the question is, is Crimean secession just? Why or why not? If 90% of a population votes for secession in a politically distinct region, is that a valid example of self-determination?
If southern California or the border counties of Texas had a referendum, under Mexican supervision, 2 weeks from now to join Mexico would that be legitimate?
If southern California or the border counties of Texas had a referendum, under Mexican supervision, 2 weeks from now to join Mexico would that be legitimate?
Are you saying that the Crimeans would have voted differently had Russia not been there? Are you saying the vote was illegitimate? Are you saying the Crimeans want to stay part of Ukraine?
For that matter, do you think the Mexicans in southern California actually want to rejoin Mexico?
If southern California or the border counties of Texas had a referendum, under Mexican supervision, 2 weeks from now to join Mexico would that be legitimate?
There is much leeway in this comparison
- These states didn't switch sides only 50 years ago
If southern California or the border counties of Texas had a referendum, under Mexican supervision, 2 weeks from now to join Mexico would that be legitimate?
Legitimacy is one thing, but the OP asked about self-determination. He poses a good question. In his example and yours, we have a locality which is a member of a larger locality. Does self-determination of the few trump that of the many? That's the question that needs to be answered. It's a tough question, IMO.
I get so tired of hearing about how Crimea doesn't have the right to secede from Ukraine. I get tired of hearing about international law(as if such a thing really exists or is useful), or whatever other argument made against secession. It ignores the fundamental question, why do governments even exist?
If we understand that in reality, the sole purpose of government is to provide justice. Then the question is, is Crimean secession just? Why or why not? If 90% of a population votes for secession in a politically distinct region, is that a valid example of self-determination?
if i put a gun to your head and tell you to vote my way, you will vote my way.
something like 40 percent of crimeans were for successsion in a poll in late 2013. all of a sudden 90 percent support it? use your head. this was not a vote where you had options.
Legitimacy is one thing, but the OP asked about self-determination. He poses a good question. In his example and yours, we have a locality which is a member of a larger locality. Does self-determination of the few trump that of the many? That's the question that needs to be answered. It's a tough question, IMO.
No, the question isn't whether or not self-determination of the few trumps the many. The question is whether or not parts of a country, in which the vast majority of the people who live there see themselves as being fundamentally different people from the rest of the nation, and who feel as if their national government is in no way representative of their own values, should be allowed to separate themselves political from the rest of the country without the permission of the rest of the country. Since it is unreasonable to think a majority of the people in any country would voluntarily allow any part of their country to break away regardless of the circumstances. You know, because the majority is the majority, they are already getting what they want, usually at the expense of a minority.
Take for instance the Kurds in Iraq/Turkey. The northern part of Iraq is almost entirely Kurdish, and the Eastern part of Turkey is almost always Kurdish. Should those areas, which already have apparent political borders, have the right to secede from Iraq and Turkey and create a new country? In all fairness, shouldn't the Kurds have their own country?
Though I do agree that the example about Southern California is valid. If a majority of California, or even a majority of a California county wanted to secede, should it be allowed to? I personally think it should.
if i put a gun to your head and tell you to vote my way, you will vote my way.
something like 40 percent of crimeans were for successsion in a poll in late 2013. all of a sudden 90 percent support it? use your head. this was not a vote where you had options.
You don't think the recent unconstitutional takeover of the government in Kiev by Ukrainian nationalists played a role in changing people's opinions? I mean, in late 2013 the leadership of Ukraine was making deals with Putin and shunning the European Union. In a sense, in 2013 the Crimean Russians were getting what they wanted, why would they want to secede?
I bet if you could go find public polls in the southern states prior to their secession in 1860/1861, I would bet public opinion on secession changed a lot once Lincoln won the election.
The real question is, do you really believe the Crimeans didn't actually want to secede? Why don't you get ahold of a group who does polling and ask them to go to Crimea and ask the people whether or not they want to secede. I would bet Rasmussen would do it, and I can guarantee you that the vast majority of them want to secede. Do you want to make a bet?
At the end of the day Crimea will become part of Russia. The issue is that Putin is pushing the issue with military threats instead of waiting a couple of months for the constitutional process and parliamentary votes to occur.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
