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It was and is intended to provide due process to teachers. You have a problem with that? Should a teacher be removable because he or she is disliked by a principal or not popular with a department head?
YOu may have a case that the process is too difficult. So fix the process. Don't throw it out.
" Should a teacher be removable because he or she is disliked by a principal or not popular with a department head?"
Why should teachers be any different then every other job?
As I keep pointing out there does not appear to be a way to assess the performance of a teacher. So it would be a little difficult to fire one for not performing.
And given that no one knows how to measure it I would think it not surprising that the Teacher's Unions would be skeptical about it as a reason for firing people.
Now I expect their are blatant cases where someone sleeps through classes or fails to teach at all. But I suspect that these get little defense. But as soon as it is simply a question of inability to perform I would thnk the union must defend mightily.
The way to fix it is to get performance standard with some validity...but no one knows how to do that at the moment. In fact both sides have think tanks to keep the other side from establishing a standard.
"there does not appear to be a way to assess the performance of a teacher. So it would be a little difficult to fire one for not performing. "
Are you serious? The teaching profession has been around for hundreds of years. If they aren't smart enough by now to figure out how to evaluate performance they shouldn't be in the profession.
EVERYBODY is evaluated. Why in the world do you think teaching is any different?
"there does not appear to be a way to assess the performance of a teacher. So it would be a little difficult to fire one for not performing. "
Are you serious? The teaching profession has been around for hundreds of years. If they aren't smart enough by now to figure out how to evaluate performance they shouldn't be in the profession.
EVERYBODY is evaluated. Why in the world do you think teaching is any different?
Teacher evaluation is a soft technique. It has no basis in fact. Never has. Nothing new. And bad teachers have been carried forever. So at this point perhaps evaluation by time on the job is as good as any other suggested technique.
It has become an issue as it is clear that we do not get the job done. The right generally wants to blame this on poor teaching or perhaps, more properly, a deficient education establishment. The left believes it is do to under funding and staffing. Basically no more money so fix it some other way.
You are under the impression that other professions are well evaluated? Law? Medicine? How does that work?
This is interesting, I am neither for or against tenure. With K-12, I don't think tenure is necessary, but I do think it is needed with college professors.
Not sure I would agree with this. A greater majority of college professors that I have seen addressing various subjects on TV are total wack jobs. Those people should never be allowed anywhere near a class room to try to brainwash the younger generation.
But the few I have seen that truly know what they are talking about and leave personal/communist/socialist agendas out of it are the ones who should continue teaching.
I believe every teacher, no matter what level, should have to stand on their own ability to do a good job.
I have never agreed with tenure. My mother was a teacher for 30 years and neither did she agree with tenure.
[quote=lvoc;35201898]Teacher evaluation is a soft technique. It has no basis in fact. Never has. Nothing new. And bad teachers have been carried forever. So at this point perhaps evaluation by time on the job is as good as any other suggested technique.
It has become an issue as it is clear that we do not get the job done. The right generally wants to blame this on poor teaching or perhaps, more properly, a deficient education establishment. The left believes it is do to under funding and staffing. Basically no more money so fix it some other way.
"time on the job is as good as any other suggested technique."
If you keep doing the same thing over and over, don't expect a different outcome.
"You are under the impression that other professions are well evaluated? Law? Medicine? How does that work?"
Let's see. A doctor has 4 patients in a row die on him in the operating room. Do you think he WON'T be evaluated and probably loose his license?
A Prosecuting Attorney looses 1/4 of all cases under his charge. Do you think the DA will just say, "Oh well, good job"?
If you are under the false impression that they are NOT evaluated, constantly, there is no reason to try and have an intelligent discussion with you.
"Tenure" here is not tenure in the college sense. It is basically due process...which you appear to agree with...
So you really don't want to get rid of "tenure" do you?
I want to make the process to get rid of poor teachers a reasonable process. Right now it's only slightly easier than it is for the Cubs to win the World Series.
I want people in place that are also held responsible for weeding out poor teachers. And then I would like to see some brave community leaders telling the parents that it is hardly all the fault of the teachers.
Teacher evaluation is a soft technique. It has no basis in fact. Never has. Nothing new. And bad teachers have been carried forever. So at this point perhaps evaluation by time on the job is as good as any other suggested technique.
It has become an issue as it is clear that we do not get the job done. The right generally wants to blame this on poor teaching or perhaps, more properly, a deficient education establishment. The left believes it is do to under funding and staffing. Basically no more money so fix it some other way.
"time on the job is as good as any other suggested technique."
If you keep doing the same thing over and over, don't expect a different outcome.
"You are under the impression that other professions are well evaluated? Law? Medicine? How does that work?"
Let's see. A doctor has 4 patients in a row die on him in the operating room. Do you think he WON'T be evaluated and probably loose his license?
A Prosecuting Attorney looses 1/4 of all cases under his charge. Do you think the DA will just say, "Oh well, good job"?
If you are under the false impression that they are NOT evaluated, constantly, there is no reason to try and have an intelligent discussion with you.
At this time, I have found that it is very difficult to truly evaluate any teacher unless one knows what kind of students are in that class room. If it is a classroom of drug/alcohol-free students that's an easy call. If it is a classroom full of drug/alcohol-addicted students no matter what the capabilities of that teacher may be that classroom is going to have a very low level of student learning. One cannot teach addicted students much of anything. Then we have the percentage of both clean and not clean to deal with. IMHO, that's the real stumbling block and a huge part of the problem of student accomplishment. Teachers cannot be blamed for "clouded minds" in the classroom.
I do not agree with tenure in any way, shape or form. But teacher evaluation is a totally different area and presents real problems as I described above. How do I know? I have tried to work with drug-blown minds and it is shocking what these dumb kids do to themselves and ruin their future for a few "highs." You cannot teach them much of anything...what they might learn today will be forgotten tomorrow.
Teacher evaluation is a soft technique. It has no basis in fact. Never has. Nothing new. And bad teachers have been carried forever. So at this point perhaps evaluation by time on the job is as good as any other suggested technique.
It has become an issue as it is clear that we do not get the job done. The right generally wants to blame this on poor teaching or perhaps, more properly, a deficient education establishment. The left believes it is do to under funding and staffing. Basically no more money so fix it some other way.
"time on the job is as good as any other suggested technique."
If you keep doing the same thing over and over, don't expect a different outcome.
"You are under the impression that other professions are well evaluated? Law? Medicine? How does that work?"
Let's see. A doctor has 4 patients in a row die on him in the operating room. Do you think he WON'T be evaluated and probably loose his license?
A Prosecuting Attorney looses 1/4 of all cases under his charge. Do you think the DA will just say, "Oh well, good job"?
If you are under the false impression that they are NOT evaluated, constantly, there is no reason to try and have an intelligent discussion with you.
You believe in the tooth fairy. The number of Doctors removed or disciplined in most states would indicate that doctors are the ultimate in virtually perfect performance...why don't I believe this? Ask the nurses in any heavy practice floor. They will tell you about the quality of the doctors. Hell I can ask my internist and get a dissection of who to stay away from...but they go on merrily practicing.
The number of lawyers being suspended after conviction is pretty mind blowing. But they were all OK before conviction. One locally is still defending clients after a felonly conviction involving fraud against the court.
There are some limited actions against public bad deeds bordering on the criminal. There is no evaluation of their competence otherwise. If they meet the state standards, which do not measure success, they continue as professionals.
There is no known way to accurately evaluate teachers. We do discipline those who do things criminal, who completely shutdown or whom obviously abuse the system. None of this deals with their actual competence as a teahcer.
Those in the system know which teachers are competent and which ones are only collecting a check.
No they don't. They think they do...but they don't. See the LA Times series. One of the things they found loud and clear was the teachers could not rate their co-workers either. IN fact some of those believed to be master teachers turned out to be very bad. And the administration did not know either. Nor parents.
That is always the problem with getting real data. You find out you don't know what you think you knew.
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