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There is a reason testimony is used in court. How do you expect a government to maintain order when they are not allowed to consider the words of citizens at any point? How will they know what to do? How will they find criminals?
So if they were planning terrorism, you think the government should ignore it?
I understand that you would like the church to supersede the state, but it does not. The separation is not even in the constitution. Might I suggest actually reading the document rather than glorifying an image of what you would like it to say? It is a great document, but it does not say what you think it says.
Why isn't the government more interested in what is preached in Mosques? If radical speeches are made I would think they would be heard there. The converted Muslim in OK City who beheaded that woman was radicalized at his mosque----you know the one Obama sent a congratulation note to since they were such good neighbors in the community.
"If the 5 pastors used pulpits for politics, their sermons are fair game. Were instructions given on filling out anti-HERO petition?-A"
Interesting comment underneath the article:
"There is no infringement on free speech here. These pastors are part of a group that is suing the city to repeal a nondiscrimination ordinance. Under the open discovery rules in litigation, the city has a right to know what they were saying about the law. Sermons are public communications, so they have no reasonable expectation of privacy or secrecy."
The churches are involved in a campaign to get a referendum to repeal the city ordinance. Texas law (at least in El Paso) does not allow the collection of referendum signatures in churches. A local Christian group lost it's effort to overturn benefits for gay and unwed-parent city employees when it was found most of the signatures were solicited in church.
Viewing sermons and correspondence will likely show the same in Houston and damage the plaintiffs' case.
Hells bells. A sensible comment. Thank you.
You should post it in the thread in the Christian forum where all the fundys are wailing, gnashing their teeth and predicting the end times.
Why isn't the government more interested in what is preached in Mosques? If radical speeches are made I would think they would be heard there. The converted Muslim in OK City who beheaded that woman was radicalized at his mosque----you know the one Obama sent a congratulation note to since they were such good neighbors in the community.
This thread is about a lawsuit brought against Houston by a group of christian pastors regarding a gay rights ordinance. If you want to talk about something else, start your own thread, so those of us who want to discuss the Houston issue won't have this thread locked on us for being off-topic. Thank you very much.
-The mayor put forward the Equal Rights Ordinance which provides equal protection against discrimination for gay, lesbian and transgender people in areas such as employment, accommodation etc.
-Some church groups decided to get a petition together to stop it because they don't like gay and lesbian people having the same rights as they do and want to discriminate against them freely.
-The city tosses the petition because of invalid signatures because churches were used to gather petition signatures and 5 pastors were using their pulpits for political purposes despite their tax-exempt status.
-The church groups sue the city for tossing the petition.
-The City attorneys subpoena the sermons/communications of the 5 pastors which would show they used their churches/pulpits for political purposes which make the sermons etc fair game, and those signatures invalid.
-Fundamentalists scream 'We're being discriminated against and persecuted by the evil gay agenda! The end is nigh!"
I'm actually in Texas so very familiar with this controversy.
Most of it was because young women and mothers of young girls protested that heterosexual men -- posing as gay men (one doesn't had to prove, can just claim to be gay to use the women's restroom or shower facilities in gyms) -- would abuse the ordinance to gain access to women's facilities and may commit sexual crimes. There was real concern sexual predators would exploit the ordinance to gain access to unsuspecting young girls/women in vulnerable situations. The protesters' men got behind them; it became a movement within some churches and other religious organizations.
Actually I don't think she's all that liberal. I had the impression she was actually fiscally conservative. And she's a Texan who likes her guns.
"Posing as gay men"?
A homosexual cannot be a rapist?
I can see it now, several women are taking a shower at their local gym when a nude male enters the otherwise gender restricted area assuring them that it's OK for him to be there because he's a ***.
I have no problem with preachers preaching against sin, or for it for that matter
But if they want to preach against laws and enter the world of politics I say let their churches pay taxes for the privilege like anyone else.
Shall we have a free speech tax as well?
Maybe we'll get a redress of grievances and peaceful assembly tax too?
Instead of being a hypocrite using your untaxed right to free speech to argue that the rights of others should be taxed, how about you voluntarily send the federal government some of your money every time you post on CD.
-The mayor put forward the Equal Rights Ordinance which provides equal protection against discrimination for gay, lesbian and transgender people in areas such as employment, accommodation etc.
-Some church groups decided to get a petition together to stop it because they don't like gay and lesbian people having the same rights as they do and want to discriminate against them freely.
-The city tosses the petition because of invalid signatures because churches were used to gather petition signatures and 5 pastors were using their pulpits for political purposes despite their tax-exempt status.
-The church groups sue the city for tossing the petition.
-The City attorneys subpoena the sermons/communications of the 5 pastors which would show they used their churches/pulpits for political purposes which make the sermons etc fair game, and those signatures invalid.
-Fundamentalists scream 'We're being discriminated against and persecuted by the evil gay agenda! The end is nigh!"
Am I on the right track?
Well, not quite. Unfortunately.
There seem to me to be contradictory statements being made about why the city disqualified the pastors' petition for a referendum on the ordinance.
1) There is a state law that prohibits churches (but not, apparently, other 501c3s) from participating in a recall/referendum under certain circumstances.
2) There is a city charter that requires that signature-gatherers meet certain requirements.
3) There are IRS and state laws that prohibit electioneering by 501c3s.
I am no attorney, and I claim no knowledge at all about Texas case law.
That said - It is obvious that if the operative issue is #3, then the sermon transcripts are relevant. It is a lot less obvious why the transcripts might be relevant in the case of #1. And they would seem to be not at all relevant if the issue is #2.
Or, it may be that there is more than one legal fight occurring here, which is not unheard of, and the news reports are not making that clear.
Myself, I am waiting for a judge to clarify what the issues are.
However, I do not think that this is a constitutional crisis requiring the singing of "onward christian soldiers".
The jackbooted thug of a mayor in Houston Texas has decided that Pastors cannot preach against sin I suppose.
Houston’s openly gay mayor evidently has decided it’s time to persecute the Christians.
C-D has seen its share of debates over the issue. Those of us who have stated that eventually governments would attack preachers for preaching against sin, have been bashed here. Our liberal friends tell us that it wont happen in America!
Well ITS HAPPING IN AMERICA.
conservatives just can't deal with reality. From my reading I think the city lawyers are wrong andover reaching.
But their over reaching has nothing to do with the conservative fiction/lying that they are trying to ban any speech.
I think that based on the legal battle that is ongoing over this ordinance banning discrimination against homosexuals, that calling for sermons to see if some of the opponents many of whom are preachers used their church pulpit for political purposes which is against the law, is over reaching, but these subpoenas have nothing to do with this conservative fiction about the subpoenas.
I don't care about this issue, and yet all I did was read neutral sources to get to reality and it always differs from conservative fictional make believe lies.
conservatives exist in a fantasy world, where even if you agree with them, you can't agree with them because they are so delusional and or dishonest.
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