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You know lori, conversing with you might be stimulating if you could go longer than 3 or 4 posts before becoming snide and insulting. It's unfortunate.
I agree, but I notice that when I post, there is a sudden increase of snide and insulting posters directing their vitriol at me in particular. A person can remain civil in the face of badgering from all sides for only so long.
Also, it is really difficult to remain civil when people are not willing to be intellectually honest in discussion I am more than happy to admit when I am wrong about facts or misstate my position.
I do not try and change the focus of a discussion or bring up irrelevant issues to make my points. I am only trying to express my opinion as to why supporting the individual claiming her actions are protected by the US and State Constitution is more important in the overall scheme of things than demeaning her as a religious individual and painting her as some gay hating villain. I do not support legislation that criminalizes gays or allows institutional discrimination against homosexuals, but in those instances where a person has a valid, religious objection to providing service, I believe they are entitled to their Constitutionally guaranteed protections.
the objection she has is one in the same be it marriage between two men or her idea of sexual sin. if she doesn't want to sell flowers to certain people, be it a man with a mistress or a gay couple then she needs to find a new job where her issues won't cause her to discriminate. religion may be very scared to some, that doesn't mean you get to discriminate. it would be interesting to know if this lady has been divorced or not or if she has any objections to making flowers for a second wedding. tons of straight people marry and divorce I doubt she is so religious she has a problem with that.
That isn't quite what was being discussed. You were the one who raised the issue of whether or not she would serve others who were using her service for sinful activities. My sense is that she would not provide her services for such a situation.
Yes, there are many circumstances where your religious beliefs do allow you to discriminate as have been discussed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Petunia 100
I think I am the best judge of what I would do, thank you.
I'll be the judge of that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjrose
The first amendment does not trump generally applicable laws.
I agree, but I notice that when I post, there is a sudden increase of snide and insulting posters directing their vitriol at me in particular. A person can remain civil in the face of badgering from all sides for only so long.
Also, it is really difficult to remain civil when people are not willing to be intellectually honest in discussion I am more than happy to admit when I am wrong about facts or misstate my position.
I do not try and change the focus of a discussion or bring up irrelevant issues to make my points. I am only trying to express my opinion as to why supporting the individual claiming her actions are protected by the US and State Constitution is more important in the overall scheme of things than demeaning her as a religious individual and painting her as some gay hating villain. I do not support legislation that criminalizes gays or allows institutional discrimination against homosexuals, but in those instances where a person has a valid, religious objection to providing service, I believe they are entitled to their Constitutionally guaranteed protections.
Do you feel I have been snide and insulting to you?
Where were the "defenders of religious freedom" then?
Again you are bringing in irrelevant issues (from 2007, no less) and trying to create a false equivalency with the facts in this case.
You tell me, were the cab drivers sued? Did they lose their livelihood and go into debt to defend themselves. Did they suffer the threat of state force that could result in the loss of their 40 year old family business?
Since you provided an example from 2007, why don't you inform us all about the outcome of your example.
Interesting that she states she has gay employees. She could not delegate design, delivery, set up, and assistance to one of them?
She is still not obligated to personally attend the ceremony.
You are basing your response on YOUR opinion, NOT the facts of this case. The services she provides for weddings includes attending the ceremony. Wouldn't her failure to provide the same services to the gay customer result in the same lawsuit by the State?
Is providing substandard service to a gay customer more acceptable than decline the service initially?
If you were able to focus on the facts of this case, you would know that the florist and customers had a friendly relationship, and his intention was to have her personal involvement in the wedding, not to have his business pushed off on just anyone that worked at her shop.
When was the states anti-discrimination law declared unconstitutional?
The florist has filed a counter-suit against the State Attorney for violation of her constitutionally protected rights. We shall see what happens as that case progresses through the court system.
That isn't quite what was being discussed. You were the one who raised the issue of whether or not she would serve others who were using her service for sinful activities. My sense is that she would not provide her services for such a situation.
Yes, there are many circumstances where your religious beliefs do allow you to discriminate as have been discussed.
I'll be the judge of that.
There are very different rules for public accommodation (restaurants, lodging and transportation) than for services, especially personal services.
I don't expect the legalities to mean much to you, but they are what they are.
And the florist is considered a public accommodation under the law in Washington.
Quote:
"Any place of public resort, accommodation, assemblage, or amusement" includes, but is not limited to, any place, licensed or unlicensed, kept for gain, hire, or reward, or where charges are made for admission, service, occupancy, or use of any property or facilities, whether conducted for the entertainment, housing, or lodging of transient guests, or for the benefit, use, or accommodation of those seeking health, recreation, or rest, or for the burial or other disposition of human remains, or for the sale of goods, merchandise, services, or personal property, or for the rendering of personal services, or for public conveyance or transportation on land, water, or in the air, including the stations and terminals thereof and the garaging of vehicles, or where food or beverages of any kind are sold for consumption on the premises, or where public amusement, entertainment, sports, or recreation of any kind is offered with or without charge, or where medical service or care is made available, or where the public gathers, congregates, or assembles for amusement, recreation, or public purposes, or public halls, public elevators, and public washrooms of buildings and structures occupied by two or more tenants, or by the owner and one or more tenants, or any public library or educational institution, or schools of special instruction, or nursery schools, or day care centers or children's camps: PROVIDED, That nothing contained in this definition shall be construed to include or apply to any institute, bona fide club, or place of accommodation, which is by its nature distinctly private, including fraternal organizations, though where public use is permitted that use shall be covered by this chapter; nor shall anything contained in this definition apply to any educational facility, columbarium, crematory, mausoleum, or cemetery operated or maintained by a bona fide religious or sectarian institution.
Again you are bringing in irrelevant issues (from 2007, no less) and trying to create a false equivalency with the facts in this case.
You tell me, were the cab drivers sued? Did they lose their livelihood and go into debt to defend themselves. Did they suffer the threat of state force that could result in the loss of their 40 year old family business?
Since you provided an example from 2007, why don't you inform us all about the outcome of your example.
The outcome was that they were told to serve all customers, or they could lose their cab licenses. They now serve the public, all of the public.
It is the same thing, they claimed religious belief to try to discriminate, they lost, just like the florist.
I agree, but I notice that when I post, there is a sudden increase of snide and insulting posters directing their vitriol at me in particular. A person can remain civil in the face of badgering from all sides for only so long.
Also, it is really difficult to remain civil when people are not willing to be intellectually honest in discussion I am more than happy to admit when I am wrong about facts or misstate my position.
I do not try and change the focus of a discussion or bring up irrelevant issues to make my points. I am only trying to express my opinion as to why supporting the individual claiming her actions are protected by the US and State Constitution is more important in the overall scheme of things than demeaning her as a religious individual and painting her as some gay hating villain. I do not support legislation that criminalizes gays or allows institutional discrimination against homosexuals, but in those instances where a person has a valid, religious objection to providing service, I believe they are entitled to their Constitutionally guaranteed protections.
just because you deem something irrelevant doesn't make it true.
are you ok with people discriminating against people of color or different religion beliefs? anyone can say my religion says, again don't want to serve people you don't approve of get out of retail. easy.
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