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"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties."
~ Thomas Jefferson, Letter to the Danbury Baptists
I was not the one who said it was Unitarian. I corrected the poster who did, who has now acknowledged the error.
The North Carolina ban was overturned based on due process and equal opportunity under the Fourteenth Amendment, however the plaintiffs brought action under the First Amendment, too.
The opposition to same sex marriage is religion based.
The bolded is what I said. Bans against ssm have not been overturned based on the Establishment clause.
Jefferson used a term in his letter that went overboard; 'picket fence' is better. There never has been, going back to Jefferson's time, a wall of separation.
Some who oppose smm do so for religious reasons. Many oppose it for non-religious reasons, ranging from icky to it's weird to not wanting gays to have any rights because they're deviant.
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties."
~ Thomas Jefferson, Letter to the Danbury Baptists
A letter from Jefferson assuring the Baptists has nothing to do with what is stated in the Constitution. In fact, Jefferson's letter was in response to this:
Sir,....
Our sentiments are uniformly on the side of religious liberty: that Religion is at all times and places a matter between God and individuals, that no man ought to suffer in name, person, or effects on account of his religious opinions, [and] that the legitimate power of civil government extends no further than to punish the man who works ill to his neighbor. But sir, our constitution of government is not specific......
Our ancient charter, together with the laws made coincident therewith, were adapted as the basis of our government at the time of our revolution. And such has been our laws and usages, and such still are, [so] that Religion is considered as the first object of Legislation, and therefore what religious privileges we enjoy (as a minor part of the State) we enjoy as favors granted, and not as inalienable rights.And these favors we receive at the expense of such degrading acknowledgments, as are inconsistent with the rights of freemen. It is not to be wondered at therefore, if those who seek after power and gain, under the pretense of government and Religion, should reproach their fellow men, [or] should reproach their Chief Magistrate, as an enemy of religion, law, and good order, because he will not, dares not, assume the prerogative of Jehovah and make laws to govern the Kingdom of Christ.
Sir, we are sensible that the President of the United States is not the National Legislator and also sensible that the national government cannot destroy the laws of each State, but our hopes are strong that the sentiment of our beloved President, which have had such genial effect already, like the radiant beams of the sun, will shine and prevail through all these States--and all the world--until hierarchy and tyranny be destroyed from the earth. Sir, when we reflect on your past services, and see a glow of philanthropy and goodwill shining forth in a course of more than thirty years, we have reason to believe that America's God has raised you up to fill the Chair of State out of that goodwill which he bears to the millions which you preside over. May God strengthen you for the arduous task which providence and the voice of the people have called you--to sustain and support you and your Administration against all the predetermined opposition of those who wish to rise to wealth and importance on the poverty and subjection of the people.
And may the Lord preserve you safe from every evil and bring you at last to his Heavenly Kingdom through Jesus Christ our Glorious Mediator.
Signed in behalf of the Association,
In other words, The Baptist Church was fearful that someone who was not religious would gain power in the government and use that power to legislate away freedom of religion or a religious person would gain power in government and legislate religious tyranny.
Jefferson's response was intended to assure the Baptist Church that would not happen and as President, he would [adhere] to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
Jefferson was confirming that his Presidency would strongly favor religious freedom as a natural right and not one given (or taken away) by force of the STATE.
Progressives are the ones who have taken the statement out of context and twisted it for their own purposes. Separation of Church and State was NEVER A CONCEPT INTERPRETED FROM THE 1st AMENDMENT!!!
Jefferson's explanation of the 1st Amendment to Daniel Webster, even further clarifies his belief that religious freedom was a natural right and not to be controlled by the government:
"It had become an universal and almost uncontroverted position in the several States that the purposes of society do not require a surrender of all our rights to our ordinary governors . . . and which experience has nevertheless proved they [the government] will be constantly encroaching on if submitted to them; that there are also certain fences which experience has proved peculiarly efficacious [effective] against wrong and rarely obstructive of right, which yet the governing powers have ever shown a disposition to weaken and remove. Of the first kind, for instance, is freedom of religion."
The bolded is what I said. Bans against ssm have not been overturned based on the Establishment clause.
Jefferson used a term in his letter that went overboard; 'picket fence' is better. There never has been, going back to Jefferson's time, a wall of separation.
Some who oppose smm do so for religious reasons. Many oppose it for non-religious reasons, ranging from icky to it's weird to not wanting gays to have any rights because they're deviant.
The bolded is what I said. Bans against ssm have not been overturned based on the Establishment clause.
Jefferson used a term in his letter that went overboard; 'picket fence' is better. There never has been, going back to Jefferson's time, a wall of separation.
Some who oppose smm do so for religious reasons. Many oppose it for non-religious reasons, ranging from icky to it's weird to not wanting gays to have any rights because they're deviant.
If Jefferson said "wall," I believe he meant "wall," not picket fence.
Those non-religious reasons are just as specious as the religious ones.
Quote:
Originally Posted by loriinwa
A letter from Jefferson assuring the Baptists has nothing to do with what is stated in the Constitution. In fact, Jefferson's letter was in response to this:
Sir,....
Our sentiments are uniformly on the side of religious liberty: that Religion is at all times and places a matter between God and individuals, that no man ought to suffer in name, person, or effects on account of his religious opinions, [and] that the legitimate power of civil government extends no further than to punish the man who works ill to his neighbor. But sir, our constitution of government is not specific......
Our ancient charter, together with the laws made coincident therewith, were adapted as the basis of our government at the time of our revolution. And such has been our laws and usages, and such still are, [so] that Religion is considered as the first object of Legislation, and therefore what religious privileges we enjoy (as a minor part of the State) we enjoy as favors granted, and not as inalienable rights.And these favors we receive at the expense of such degrading acknowledgments, as are inconsistent with the rights of freemen. It is not to be wondered at therefore, if those who seek after power and gain, under the pretense of government and Religion, should reproach their fellow men, [or] should reproach their Chief Magistrate, as an enemy of religion, law, and good order, because he will not, dares not, assume the prerogative of Jehovah and make laws to govern the Kingdom of Christ.
Sir, we are sensible that the President of the United States is not the National Legislator and also sensible that the national government cannot destroy the laws of each State, but our hopes are strong that the sentiment of our beloved President, which have had such genial effect already, like the radiant beams of the sun, will shine and prevail through all these States--and all the world--until hierarchy and tyranny be destroyed from the earth. Sir, when we reflect on your past services, and see a glow of philanthropy and goodwill shining forth in a course of more than thirty years, we have reason to believe that America's God has raised you up to fill the Chair of State out of that goodwill which he bears to the millions which you preside over. May God strengthen you for the arduous task which providence and the voice of the people have called you--to sustain and support you and your Administration against all the predetermined opposition of those who wish to rise to wealth and importance on the poverty and subjection of the people.
And may the Lord preserve you safe from every evil and bring you at last to his Heavenly Kingdom through Jesus Christ our Glorious Mediator.
Signed in behalf of the Association,
In other words, The Baptist Church was fearful that someone who was not religious would gain power in the government and use that power to legislate away freedom of religion or a religious person would gain power in government and legislate religious tyranny.
Jefferson's response was intended to assure the Baptist Church that would not happen and as President, he would [adhere] to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
Jefferson was confirming that his Presidency would strongly favor religious freedom as a natural right and not one given (or taken away) by force of the STATE.
Progressives are the ones who have taken the statement out of context and twisted it for their own purposes. Separation of Church and State was NEVER A CONCEPT INTERPRETED FROM THE 1st AMENDMENT!!!
Jefferson's explanation of the 1st Amendment to Daniel Webster, even further clarifies his belief that religious freedom was a natural right and not to be controlled by the government:
"It had become an universal and almost uncontroverted position in the several States that the purposes of society do not require a surrender of all our rights to our ordinary governors . . . and which experience has nevertheless proved they [the government] will be constantly encroaching on if submitted to them; that there are also certain fences which experience has proved peculiarly efficacious [effective] against wrong and rarely obstructive of right, which yet the governing powers have ever shown a disposition to weaken and remove. Of the first kind, for instance, is freedom of religion."
The post I responded to was concerning the phrase "separation of church and state." The poster I responded to apparently rejects the entire concept and does not believe it is what the first Amendment intends. I believe Jefferson knows exactly what the writers of the Constitution meant, and it was a wall, not a picket fence.
"II. Be it enacted by the General Assembly, That no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested or burdened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinion in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities."
Elsewhere, the act reads:
"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical..."
And:
"... our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions ..."
"Congress should not establish a religion and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any manner contrary to their conscience, or that one sect might obtain a pre-eminence, or two combined together, and establish a religion to which they would compel others to conform" (Annals of Congress, Sat Aug 15th, 1789 pages 730 - 731).
In demanding that state laws concerning marriage conform to any religion's concept of marriage, the wall between religion and state is breached.
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