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.... I have more connection with Ireland (one century removed) than Ashkenazim have with Palestine (more than ten centuries removed, if any lineage whatsoever). I suppose I could just pack up and grab some lot in Dublin, eh? Or better yet -- Belfast. Everyone knows that those Protestants are squatting on Catholic land.
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Originally Posted by drishmael
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Doesn't much matter -- doesn't give them a right to land in Palestine any more than I have a right to land in Ireland. But there seems to be somewhat of a debate as to how much genetic drift occurred in more than 10 centuries. Prima facie, you would assume it would be immense, but the population was somewhat insular, so maybe not.
You can move to Ireland as much as a Jew can move to Israel. Neither country gives land away for free.
"You can move to Ireland as much as a Jew can move to Israel. Neither country gives land away for free."
Oh, I don't mind paying some marginal sum. The big thing is I'd like to evict some Protestants without giving them any say in the matter. It was Catholic land in the 16th century, mind you.
How many Palestinians' homes did you bulldoze today? Why do you believe in property rights for everyone except Arabs? ....
You seem to not understand deeds. If we stay within the realm of the West Bank only (No Jews are in Gaza and Arabs do own land in Israel) all an Arab (or their family) has to do is show proof of ownership or a deed. This can go all the way back to the Ottomans and have tax stamps. If it's a unbroken ownership then it's their land. Since by virtue of their Arab leaders they can't sell land to Jews under penalty of death, there are certain times Israel takes the land due to eminent domain and cuts them a check. If the land is found to have been owned by Jews previous to the 1949 Armistice (all Jews were evicted from the West Bank), then once the Jews returned in 1967 the ownership reverted back to the Jews. If the Arabs cannot show any type of ownership, then they are squatters. And thus any land without deeded ownership is National land and is owned by the Israeli gov't to do with as they wish. And if one is the winner in a war, then the winners citizens will get use of National land first over the Arabs who were Jordanians for nearly 20 years.
Oh, I don't mind paying some marginal sum. The big thing is I'd like to evict some Protestants without giving them any say in the matter. It was Catholic land in the 16th century, mind you.
They are both sects of Christianity and thus the are the same religion. That has no correlation between Jews and Muslims or Jews and Christians.
Because Israel never fought Palestinians as there was no Palestinian state so should the Palestinians be punished?
Do you really think that the Arabs in the Mandate simply sat back in their beach chairs and watched the wars while other Arabs fought for them? Really?
What I think doesn't matter, but we all know that Palestine was not a side to the conflict as there was no Palestinian state. Anyways, we all know that Palestinian state will have to be created as Israel simply can't annex the occupied land with a few million Palestinians living there which would create Arab/Palestinian majority in Israel. This would not work during election time, would it?
On May 14th (1948) Israel created their country and on May 15th the Arabs started a war. But you are missing one point; the "All-Palestine Government" was established by the Arabs during the war on September 22nd and was recognized by the entire Arab League and set its borders to be the entire Mandate (which included Israel).
But you are right about one point; Israel will not annex the West Bank or Gaza. These two territories are already on UN welfare. We already know the stance Hamas has with Israel, so sooner or later they will have to make peace with Egypt as Israel will simply close its border with it and be done with it. The next rocket attack from Gaza will probably end up with 20,000 deaths instead of 2,000. As to the West Bank, Israel will finish its walls/fences and it will be landlocked and become a UN welfare state. Keep in mind that all the Billions pledged them not once but twice has not materialized more than $100k each time.
The Israeli leadership has changed multiple times and the Palestinians have basically had the same leadership over the same time span. Numerous plans have been put on the table and numerous concessions have already been done by Israel. But the PA still wants to play games and the Israelis have basically said enough is enough and have gone into build, baby, build mode.
You do know that you can be pro-Israel and pro-Judaism without anti-Islamic statements.
And I will keep speaking the truth about Mohammed's pedophilia no matter how often my statement involuntarily gets modified.
Leftist whiners keep nattering on about stolen land. Brain dead Arabs have started numerous conflicts and were soundly defeated every time with a corresponding loss of territory.
Note the new Bot talking point that 'no American should care about Israel'.
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Originally Posted by desertdetroiter
Give me a good reason why I should.
Besides, this is about caring whether or not some meaningless piece of land should be called the Occupied Territories. This isn't about whether or not you should care about Israel.
Speak for yourself. Allies? Maybe in the official sense, but we don't need allies regardless.
Brothers? I don't think so. Your brothers maybe. I don't have any brothers in the Middle East.
Who the Occupied Territories belong to and in whose hands it'll remain in is a "no skin off my back" proposition. The British can take it all back for all I care. I don't see why I should argue with another American about something so meaningless.
"As long as there's a USA?" LMAO...Not! It's none of our concern. We didn't create Israel, and it's not our job to define their borders or further anyone's irredentist policies or ambitions.
We are responsible for Israel and that comes from God. You tell me a higher power. The day we turn our back on Israel is the day we might as well take "In God We Trust" off our money and will be the first nail in the coffin of our society.
If you think that all the good luck we've had as Americans is pure chance, you are not thinking clearly. We have been blessed, but there are costs. Israel is one of them.
Never again will the Jews go through what they went through in WWII. Not as long as there is a USA.
If you feel land israel won in wars brought against them are occupied territories do you feel the same about american land? If anything american land taken from american natives was occuping territories and should be given back. It was the spoils of war with us non natives as the agressors. Stand up to give right of return to american natives before you call for it for palestinians!
A very poorly constructed analogy. Let's re-frame this in the proper context, OK?
Surely the treatment for which the North American native Indians were subjected to at the hands of the European invaders was wrong, and an unflattering part of American history to be sure. Few would argue that point today. That being said, would it be appropriate and perfectly acceptable for a group of modern day Native Americans to march into "Any-Town, USA", bulldoze the homes of all of the town's current inhabitants, evict them and make them homeless refugees, or worse, murder them, so as to take by force their property based on claims of ancestral rights to said land?
To make it more personal, me thinks YOU might have a wee bit of a problem if a group of Native Americans, backed by the United States military marched into your town or city .... dragged you, your children, your neighbors and relatives and friends out of their homes .... bulldozed those homes, and built brand new homes for those Indians claiming rights to the land because 200 years ago, their ancestors lived on that land.
In the case of Israel, that ancestral claim to the land for which others have called home is a 2000 year old claim ... not just 200. But either way, such action is unjustifiable, and particularly in the case of Israeli actions which include bringing "Jews" in from all four corners of the globe, and giving them land which had been home to it's current inhabitants for generations.
In the case of the European invaders taking North America by force, and ethnically cleansing the land of it's current residents ... they legitimized that action by dehumanizing those human beings by labeling them godless heathens, and citing "manifest destiny" as justification. Of course, today, few would dare attempt to rationalize such actions as justified and appropriate. It was wrong, and everyone knows it was wrong.
Nevertheless, THE SAME EXACT behavior is playing out today in the land formerly labeled "Palestine", under the same false and unjust premise of claiming ancient ancestral rights to STEAL someone else's land and ethnically cleansing them from that land, and consequently, "Occupied Territories" is an appropriate and accurate definition ... at least to those for whom their land and homes were stolen. To those people, the invaders are indeed occupying their land.
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