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My solution is this ---abolish the H1-B program as it is riddled with fraud and corruption (something that you appear to not care about). Once again---should we reach the point where American citizen STEM/IT workers are fielding several job offers at great salaries and those jobs are going begging, then come up with a temporary visa program that has strict oversight.
Your solution will not work and the answer is in the question
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Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
Did you also know that when Gates asked for more H1-Bs to be brought into this country and didn't get them, he had a hissy fit and built a campus in British Columbia?
Why do Google, Apple, Microsoft, Amazon, Facebook remain where they are?
It's convenient. That is entirely all that it is. Any one of them can pick their ball up and move somewhere else, it will be unfortunate for non-essential personnel, but the company isn't going to suffer much other than a minor blip on the earnings statement (and yes it's a minor blip, when you have say $90B in cash, and spend $10B relocating yourself, and your essential staff, it's just a blip). They're already global with facilities off shore in Europe, the Middle East, Asia, Australia, etc.
So you'll never get a situation where US STEM/IT workers are fielding several job offers at great salaries, because those offers would be all overseas before then, earning no American worker incomes (and no income taxes), and paying no US corporate taxes. That's the truth of the matter, and with those would go all of the support positions, and service industries that provide for them, and those worker incomes (and income taxes) and no corporate taxes.
Those corps need not only people but good people, if they get them here, that's great, if here prevents them bringing them in, they'll move to where they can bring them in, downsize their US ops, move HQ to that place, and build it up. What do you think Seattle would look like then? Or Palo Alto/Sunnyvale/Cupertino. Can we say economic deserts?
All I can say, AmFest is that your contempt of the thousands of experienced American citizen IT workers who have been displaced in the workforce is downright despicable. You claim to be "deeply concerned" but your rabid defense of H1-Bs tells another story altogether.
What is your dog in this fight? Why is it that you are bending over backwards to defend the H1-B visa program, despite the fact that it is riddled with fraud and corruption? Why do you refuse to address the fact that many H1-Bs submit fraudulent resumes, yet get away with it like no American ever could?
Where did I say that my husband had a problem with only "one" Indian worker? Never did I say that. In actuality, he has had problems with far more than that. Particularly, he has had to clean up messes that H1-Bs have made. I could go on with more examples, but you are too close-minded and contemptuous of Americans.
You seem to think that all H1-Bs are Indians. They are not. That said, most Indians who immigrate here either come on H1-B or student visas or benefit from chain migration. Lots of Indians are here illegally. Many never left when their H1-B visa expired.
You "don't give a damn" about poaching talent from third world countries. Yet, you had a fit when I said that Elon Musk could have been just as successful in Canada. Why the double standard?
We do have plenty of "competent" American citizens who are trained in the STEM/IT fields. Did it ever occur to you that those "burger flippers" may want to go to college and major in a STEM/IT field? You are so naive that you don't realize that many of our smartest kids are being dissuaded from studying a STEM/IT field in college because they see what is happening with the whole H1-B visa program. They see how Indians blatantly discriminate against non-Indians. They also see how Americans in their 40s or older get replaced by H1-Bs.
I'll say it again --- the H1-B visa program needs to be abolished. When it was created, it was pitched this way---it would be a temporary program where visa workers would be used until more Americans could graduate from STEM/IT fields. Once those workers got out of school, the H1-B visa program was supposed to go away. Instead, it turned out to be a visa program riddled with fraud and corruption and displaced experienced Americans.
All I can say, AmFest is that your contempt of the thousands of experienced American citizen IT workers who have been displaced in the workforce is downright despicable.
Where exactly did I show any contempt of these people? Show me, and I'll give you 5 bucks.
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Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
You claim to be "deeply concerned" but your rabid defense of H1-Bs tells another story altogether.
To be clear, I don't defend the H-1B program in its current state. I want it to be deep cleaned.
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Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
What is your dog in this fight? Why is it that you are bending over backwards to defend the H1-B visa program,
I don't need to bend over backward at all. The facts speak for themselves. I don't think I've even had to give this much thought. Most of the effort on my part has been to remind you of my stance and to stop you from putting words in my mouth.
I don't consider this a fight. So far this has been entertaining. My goal in this conversation with you is to demonstrate that we need competent H-1B workers. On the side, I've also been arguing that you should not kick people like Elon Musk out of our country.
You've learned something too, I bet.
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Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
despite the fact that it is riddled with fraud and corruption?
As I've said a million times (plus one now), I want the fraud and corruption to be eliminated. This has been my stance the entire time and you don't seem to get it.
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Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
Why do you refuse to address the fact that many H1-Bs submit fraudulent resumes, yet get away with it like no American ever could?
Tell me where I refused to address this, and I'll give you another 5 bucks.
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Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
Where did I say that my husband had a problem with only "one" Indian worker? Never did I say that. In actuality, he has had problems with far more than that.
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Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
Not only that, but Indian H1-Bs who manage to get green cards and are in a position to hire blatantly discriminate against non-Indians. My husband had that happen to him, as did his friend who is a naturalized US citizen from Nigeria.
As far as I can tell, this is one Indian manager.
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Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
Particularly, he has had to clean up messes that H1-Bs have made. I could go on with more examples, but you are too close-minded and contemptuous of Americans.
Oh go on. I'm listening. This is new development.
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Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
You seem to think that all H1-Bs are Indians.
Show me where I said or hinted at this and I'll give you another 5 bucks.
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Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
You "don't give a damn" about poaching talent from third world countries. Yet, you had a fit when I said that Elon Musk could have been just as successful in Canada. Why the double standard?
I have a problem with the fact that you would like to kick him out of America and would therefore see tens of thousands of American jobs disappear.
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Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
We do have plenty of "competent" American citizens who are trained in the STEM/IT fields. Did it ever occur to you that those "burger flippers" may want to go to college and major in a STEM/IT field? You are so naive that you don't realize that many of our smartest kids are being dissuaded from studying a STEM/IT field in college because they see what is happening with the whole H1-B visa program. They see how Indians blatantly discriminate against non-Indians. They also see how Americans in their 40s or older get replaced by H1-Bs.
Do they really? How many American college students do you know are not studying these fields because of low wage? Do they even care about Indians or not at that age? Tell me, I'm listening. I know of no one like that.
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Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
I'll say it again --- the H1-B visa program needs to be abolished.
No need to say it again. You've said this same thing in just about every single post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
When it was created, it was pitched this way---it would be a temporary program where visa workers would be used until more Americans could graduate from STEM/IT fields. Once those workers got out of school, the H1-B visa program was supposed to go away.
Really? Show me where you got this form.
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Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
Instead, it turned out to be a visa program riddled with fraud and corruption and displaced experienced experienced Americans.
That's why it needs deep cleansing.
All right, you have an opportunity to collect a total of 20 bucks if you can point out where I said what you claimed I said. Good luck.
The real problem is, the H1B program has been hijacked by some Indian staffing companies. In recent years, over 70% H1B visas went to Indian nationals. Can you believe that?
There is a 65,000 cap each year. Some of the staffing companies send 3, 4, 5 petitions for the same person (which is illegal), so they have 3, 4, 5 times more chances to be selected than others. Also, the law says H1B beneficiaries must have already had a job offer when filing the petition. Those staffing companies create fake jobs for those who do not have an offer already, just to take the H1B. After that, it is easier to "transfer" to a real job.
We do have plenty of "competent" American citizens who are trained in the STEM/IT fields. Did it ever occur to you that those "burger flippers" may want to go to college and major in a STEM/IT field? You are so naive that you don't realize that many of our smartest kids are being dissuaded from studying a STEM/IT field in college because they see what is happening with the whole H1-B visa program. They see how Indians blatantly discriminate against non-Indians. They also see how Americans in their 40s or older get replaced by H1-Bs.
No, we don't have plenty of "competent" because competent doesn't cut it, competent and $4.00 will get you a Venti Triple Shot Latte with a shot of Hazelnut at a Starbucks in a Google, or Apple, or Microsoft, or Amazon cafeteria.
I'd estimate less than 1% of all STEM graduates would meet the hiring bar at Microsoft, Google, Oracle, Facebook, Amazon, etc. (and I was a hiring manager three of those companies, so I'm not claiming something I've not experienced) that's no different for the US to any other country with reputable undergrad universities. As of 2014 that would be 3,500 graduates. the workforce of just those companies is around the same as the graduating class of 2014. Given that 1% meet the bar you need international recruiting to support those industries because 1% new hires isn't going to cut it per year. People don't work in software development for 100 years, they don't even work in software development for 40 years. I'll also add that those 350,000 graduates are people who graduate from US institutions, and not necessarily just native US Graduates.
STEM Graduate numbers are on track to meet Obama's goals, which is interesting since all of the initiatives proposed have received no funding and stalled (perhaps Mr. Obama is an underachiever). However even then the numbers are insufficient, because having a degree is only the first step on the ladder, there are other intrinsic factors that are in play that are uncommon, and most serious software companies want several of those intrinsic factors in the same candidate (which is highly uncommon). Everyone with a degree in a STEM field cannot be successful, that's just the way it is, and all STEM graduates are not ideal for work in just IT, probably less than half (only those who are studying Math, Physics, Comp Sci and maybe some other subjects).
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
I'll say it again --- the H1-B visa program needs to be abolished. When it was created, it was pitched this way---it would be a temporary program where visa workers would be used until more Americans could graduate from STEM/IT fields. Once those workers got out of school, the H1-B visa program was supposed to go away. Instead, it turned out to be a visa program riddled with fraud and corruption and displaced experienced experienced Americans.
You're failing to realize that YOU need those companies for the money they earn, the people they employ and the taxes they pay. THEY do not need the US, they could do precisely the same thing they do now in Germany, France, UK, China, India, Australia, Russia, and those countries are not going to refuse a 20% tax payday on annual profits of a few tens of billions of dollars, plus income and sales taxes from employees.
Please. Gates has made it very clear that he wants even more H1-Bs and even lies about not being able to find Americans. For example, what effort was made to hire Americans? Was help offered with relocation costs? Was training offered to those who needed to get up to speed?
I've read the stories told by Americans who are blatantly discriminated against by Indians who refuse to hire non-Indians.
If there is a shortage of Americans, then why did Southern California Edison get rid of their American IT staff and replace them with H1-Bs? If such a shortage of Americans did indeed exist, then SCE would have kept their staff.
Sorry. You can't pretend that there aren't thousands of unemployed experienced American citizen STEM/IT workers. Not only that but the older they are, the more likely they will be passed over in favor of an H1-B. Some of these Americans have been out of work so long that their skills have gone rusty. Yet, these days no company will take them on and get them up to speed. Don't tell me that these unemployed Americans should pay for training. Try doing that when you've been unemployed for so long that you've depleted your savings just trying to keep afloat.
These companies will continue to earn money without H1-Bs. Please don't trot out the line that if it weren't for H1-Bs, these jobs would be off shored. Either way, whether these jobs stay in this country and are taken by H1-Bs or if they're off shored, Americans still get the shaft.
As for those in STEM programs, far too many bright kids are being discouraged from getting into the field because they hear the stories about Americans being passed over in favor of H1-Bs. Imagine coming out of college with student loan debts and not being able to find work in their fields.
As for you saying---in so many words---that not all STEM grads are competent. Well, neither are a lot of H1-Bs due to the fraud in the visa program, so many get away with lying about their skills.
As for those in STEM programs, far too many bright kids are being discouraged from getting into the field because they hear the stories about Americans being passed over in favor of H1-Bs. Imagine coming out of college with student loan debts and not being able to find work in their fields.
Contemporary American culture does not respect/value engineers either.
Even in schools, for example, "nerds" cannot get girls and athletes are much more popular.
Some schools specialized in STEM programs get very low national rankings, while those not having decent STEM programs are often ranked high
Contemporary American culture does not respect/value engineers either.
Even in schools, for example, "nerds" cannot get girls and athletes are much more popular.
Some schools specialized in STEM programs get very low national rankings, while those not having decent STEM programs are often ranked high
True about "nerds". However, that alone isn't what is stopping smart kids (nerds, if you will) from getting STEM degrees. Rather, it's concerns about not finding work and being passed over in favor of H1-Bs.
True about "nerds". However, that alone isn't what is stopping smart kids (nerds, if you will) from getting STEM degrees. Rather, it's concerns about not finding work and being passed over in favor of H1-Bs.
Engineering and computer science are still the best bet for job hunting, other things being equal.
If they have concerns about finding jobs at all, they will choose those majors.
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