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What "places" are you speaking of - again third world countries? Or are you speaking of within the US. If it is within, then please refer back to me original post.
Is your argument that the US is or is not "out of control" because we have so many guns?
How does that jibe with other first world countries that have strict gun control and a civilized non-murderous population. Doesn't say much for us does it?
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Lithuania has the fewest guns per capita (0.7 per hundred) of any EU country and yet it's murder rate (6.7 per thousand) is ten times as high as Sweden's murder rate (0.7 per thousand) which has forty times as many guns (31.6 guns per hundred) per capita.
As you can see, it's not the guns. It's the people.
Aparently not well at all since millions of black market guns are available all over europe. If gun control worked then you wouldn't have millions of illegal guns all over europe.
How about this math. Lithuania has the fewest guns per capita (0.7 per hundred) of any EU country and yet it's murder rate (6.7 per thousand) is ten times as high as Sweden's murder rate (0.7 per thousand) which has forty times as many guns (31.6 guns per hundred) per capita.
Try your math on that one.
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Originally Posted by Roadking2003
Lithuania has the fewest guns per capita (0.7 per hundred) of any EU country and yet it's murder rate (6.7 per thousand) is ten times as high as Sweden's murder rate (0.7 per thousand) which has forty times as many guns (31.6 guns per hundred) per capita.
As you can see, it's not the guns. It's the people.
(a) we are talking about guns AND gun control... The Lithuanian non-gun death rate has nothing to do with that. Lets stick to apples and apples.
(b) So, by your definition, if a country has gun control, yet there is one (1) gun in that country, it is a failure?
(c) you really want to bring in a country with 6 total deaths by hand gun and make that your argument?
(d) The social conditions that make Lithuania so murderous compared to their neighbors is not part of this discussion. Why they are killing I cannot tell you. But again that has nothing to do with this discussion on gun control. If that is something you want to argue about, please start a thread - here is some helpful (?) information.
(e) A Side Issue (Off Topic)... Social issues definitely affect the local murder rates, but the methods and efficiencies of the chosen murder methods also affect both the number of successful murder attempts and the number of innocent bystanders effected. In a country where they have decided NOT to have guns and yet the murder rate is relatively high. I would still prefer that model because there will be no "drive by" killings of innocents - especially children. How far does an errant bullet fly compared to a knife? How many children do you read about finding a knife in a purse or on a table and accidentally stabbing someone verses the numerous gun "accidentally" going off at supermakets? In churches? At a restaurant? While standing in line at the DMV?
Last edited by blktoptrvl; 09-04-2015 at 04:19 PM..
I never said or implied that this was a (and especially not MY) utopian vision for America? I said (once again) that gun control was NOT being implemented by any true and logical definition. Please take your political views out of the equation and argue that if you like.
If guns were made illegal, the number available to criminals would drop tremendously and I imagine relatively quickly. Plain and simple.
And I don't care how large the black market is, I can never keep up with the vast number of handguns being manufactured daily - right here in America.
You may continue to repeat your mantra - "gun control has been tried," but it is just another political lie. It is like saying there are no gun deaths because "I" did not kill anyone with a gun.
If all you have are emotional arguments and you have no logic or fact based support, please don't bother - it is a waste of my time.
you keep implying that making guns illegal will end the problems with guns, or at least severely reduce them, but the facts show otherwise. in this country, criminals are already NOT ALLOWED to own firearms, AND YET they still get a hold of firearms, AND USE THEM to commit crimes. so how is that law working out for you?
and again you claim that gun control laws have not been tried in this country, but again the FACTS prove you wrong. so the fact that you claim that gun control has not been tried here is in fact a lie, because you refuse to see the real truth. and you refuse to see that gun control laws just dont work.
and you also refuse to see that until you get rid of the constitution, you cannot do what you gun grabbers want to do and eliminate guns from the US. in fact you gun grabbers cannot eliminate guns from ANYWHERE in the world despite your best efforts.
something else you forget is that all it takes is someone with a few smarts, and a good lathe, and they can make guns in their basement if they want. so you can eliminate the manufacturers of guns, the big ones anyway, but the small guys will still make all they want. so imagine instead of a few large gun manufacturers in the world, there are millions of small one in the world.
you keep implying that making guns illegal will end the problems with guns, or at least severely reduce them, but the facts show otherwise. in this country, criminals are already NOT ALLOWED to own firearms, AND YET they still get a hold of firearms, AND USE THEM to commit crimes. so how is that law working out for you?
Please show me thess facts or stop saying it. Aren't most guns in the hands of criminals obtained via crime or secondary sales? Don't they get these guns buy robbing or buying them from people who obtained them legally? If there were far fewer or no legal guns, this method would be closed off. This is an indisputable FACT of logic. Can't you see that there is a huge difference between "not allowed" and "not able."
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbohm
and again you claim that gun control laws have not been tried in this country, but again the FACTS prove you wrong. so the fact that you claim that gun control has not been tried here is in fact a lie, because you refuse to see the real truth. and you refuse to see that gun control laws just dont work.
Again, what fact? You keep saying this, but then you show NO FACT. I have said over and over and over (It was my only statement until you all started bringing in side issues) that complete gun control has not been tried - you all keep going back to limited gun control.
If you have children in your house and you tell one of them he is not allowed to have candy - simply because you say so - but the others are welcome to. Do you think that his siblings will not slip him any? If in that same household, you say that NONE of your children can have candy - and you inspect them each time any of them come into the house do you seriously claim that candy consumption IN THE HOUSE will not go down?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbohm
and you also refuse to see that until you get rid of the constitution, you cannot do what you gun grabbers want to do and eliminate guns from the US. in fact you gun grabbers cannot eliminate guns from ANYWHERE in the world despite your best efforts.
Another factual lie and a poor assumption. I never said that it would not require changes to the constitution. I never said I want to eliminate all guns. I am a gun owner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbohm
something else you forget is that all it takes is someone with a few smarts, and a good lathe, and they can make guns in their basement if they want. so you can eliminate the manufacturers of guns, the big ones anyway, but the small guys will still make all they want. so imagine instead of a few large gun manufacturers in the world, there are millions of small one in the world.
I have not forgot or missed this. I have said over and over again that making all guns and ammo hard to get or illegal would get rid of most of them.
You keep giving the same emotional arguments and claiming things I did not say - while ignoring what I did say. Again. If you want to argue this, please bring FACTS - not your emotions.
Last edited by blktoptrvl; 09-04-2015 at 04:52 PM..
Please show me thess facts or stop saying it. Aren't most guns in the hands of criminals obtained via crime or secondary sales? Don't they get these guns buy robbing or buying them from people who obtained them legally? If there were far fewer or no legal guns, this method would be closed off. This is an indisputable FACT of logic. Can't you see that there is a huge difference between "not allowed" and "not able."
you miss being able to buy guns on the black market, many of which were sold by unscrupulous gun dealers, who hopefully have been put in jail by now. but lets look at chicago for instance shall we? they have some of the strictest gun laws in the country, and yet they have one of the highest murder rates. so how is that working out for them?
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Again, what fact? You keep saying this, but then you show NO FACT. I have said over and over and over (It was my only statement until you all started bringing in side issues) that complete gun control has not been tried - you all keep going back to limited gun control.
and YOU completely miss the fact that washington dc, chicago, new york city, san francisco, los angeles all have strict gun control laws, and yet they also have high murder rates, so again how is that working out for them?
Quote:
If you have children in your house and you tell one of them he is not allowed to have candy - simply because you say so - but the others are welcome to. Do you think that his siblings will not slip him any? If in that same household, you say that NONE of your children can have candy - and you inspect them each time any of them come into the house do you seriously claim that candy consumption IN THE HOUSE will not go down?
oh gee, children with a sweet tooth getting candy under the table, what a concept. what are you going to do, punish them for having a snickers bar? get real. however you can teach your children proper gun safety, and you can teach your children to leave your guns alone, for instance my niece never touched my brothers guns when she was little. my brother and i never touched our fathers guns when we were little, unless he was with us, so that kind of blows your whole children not listening to their parents doesnt it?
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Another factual lie and a poor assumption. I never said that it would not require changes to the constitution. I never said I want to eliminate all guns. I am a gun owner.
right you say that, and then say that you want to make guns illegal. so either you are not a gun owner, but rather a gun grabber, OR you have no clue as to what you are talking about, thus you are irrelevant at this point.
you miss being able to buy guns on the black market, many of which were sold by unscrupulous gun dealers, who hopefully have been put in jail by now. but lets look at chicago for instance shall we? they have some of the strictest gun laws in the country, and yet they have one of the highest murder rates. so how is that working out for them?
No, like all your other non-points, I addressed this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbohm
and YOU completely miss the fact that washington dc, chicago, new york city, san francisco, los angeles all have strict gun control laws, and yet they also have high murder rates, so again how is that working out for them?
Yes, I already addressed that too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbohm
oh gee, children with a sweet tooth getting candy under the table, what a concept. what are you going to do, punish them for having a snickers bar? get real. however you can teach your children proper gun safety, and you can teach your children to leave your guns alone, for instance my niece never touched my brothers guns when she was little. my brother and i never touched our fathers guns when we were little, unless he was with us, so that kind of blows your whole children not listening to their parents doesnt it?
So, again in your obtuseness, you completely ignored - or more likely missed the point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbohm
right you say that, and then say that you want to make guns illegal. so either you are not a gun owner, but rather a gun grabber, OR you have no clue as to what you are talking about, thus you are irrelevant at this point.
If I show you my secret decoder ring will you then believe it? But really, what would the point be? Just as I thought at the beginning, you have no fact or logic based arguments and have become an emotional waste of time. Take care. Please feel free to post if you come up with ANY arguments that are not based on childish retorts or repeating the same nonsense over and over. I look forward to any real discussion.
Last edited by blktoptrvl; 09-04-2015 at 06:14 PM..
You will never know if gun control can work in America until it is tried... and it has never been tried.
You can't ban guns in Chicago and then expect that they won't come in from any other part of the state or the country. Controlling guns would mean removing them completely from the entire country.
Until you do that, you will never be able to make this claim.
Except the bold part is a fallacy.
If you ban guns in the US why would you expect that they won't come in from any other part of the world? Cocaine isn't known as Columbian marching powder because it's grown on the shores of the Columbia River. Heroin isn't known as China white as a reference to the color of your mothers China or Mexican brown because you bought it from Juan on the street corner.
The US has one of the most porous borders in the world, your bolded statement if enacting strict gun control (UK style) in the US would result in the following statement within a few years.
"You can't ban guns in America and then expect that they won't come in from any other part of the world. Controlling guns would mean removing them completely from the entire planet."
You're just pushing the problem further afield. If we cannot prevent gun deaths in the US from legally owned guns, what makes us think we'll be able to prevent gun deaths in the US from illegally owned guns? In the vast majority of cases in the US the people criminally killed by guns aren't killed by people who legally own them; most people who kill others with guns are legally prohibited from possessing them; in effect banning guns just moves the prohibited person slider as far an extent as you can (everyone is a prohibited person).
Now considering that, can you tell me how enacting gun control is going to reduce firearms deaths, when in every city, town, village and hamlet of the US you can buy illegal drugs that are imported to the US from countries as far away as Afghanistan, Turkey, Morocco, China, Columbia, Peru and not have the same issues with guns. That will still be owned by people who possess them illegally. Committing acts which are still crimes with life sentences.
Or is your intention to push your demands on other countries, demand that they comply to your demands? How are you going to handle the probable disinclination to acquiesce to those demands?
If you ban guns in the US why would you expect that they won't come in from any other part of the world? Cocaine isn't known as Columbian marching powder because it's grown on the shores of the Columbia River. Heroin isn't known as China white as a reference to the color of your mothers China or Mexican brown because you bought it from Juan on the street corner.
The US has one of the most porous borders in the world, your bolded statement if enacting strict gun control (UK style) in the US would result in the following statement within a few years.
"You can't ban guns in America and then expect that they won't come in from any other part of the world. Controlling guns would mean removing them completely from the entire planet."
You're just pushing the problem further afield. If we cannot prevent gun deaths in the US from legally owned guns, what makes us think we'll be able to prevent gun deaths in the US from illegally owned guns? In the vast majority of cases in the US the people criminally killed by guns aren't killed by people who legally own them; most people who kill others with guns are legally prohibited from possessing them; in effect banning guns just moves the prohibited person slider as far an extent as you can (everyone is a prohibited person).
Now considering that, can you tell me how enacting gun control is going to reduce firearms deaths, when in every city, town, village and hamlet of the US you can buy illegal drugs that are imported to the US from countries as far away as Afghanistan, Turkey, Morocco, China, Columbia, Peru and not have the same issues with guns. That will still be owned by people who possess them illegally. Committing acts which are still crimes with life sentences.
Or is your intention to push your demands on other countries, demand that they comply to your demands? How are you going to handle the probable disinclination to acquiesce to those demands?
Sorry, I have no interest in repeating all the same arguments once more - especially if you do not understand the first one... If you are really interested, please read the rest of the posts and you will find your answers. If not, point out your specific question (not already answered) and I will be happy to respond.
Sorry, I have no interest in repeating all the same arguments once more - especially if you do not understand the first one... If you are really interested, please read the rest of the posts and you will find your answers. If not, point out your specific question (not already answered) and I will be happy to respond.
the problem is that you have no points. everything you posted is crap and you know it. chicago does have strict gun control laws, and they dont work, but you wont acknowledge that. you ramble about how gun control has never been tried in this country. if anyone is dealing with emotional arguments its you, i gave you actual facts, but again as per your usual you ignored them. nice try but you have failed to make any kind of argument that makes gun control even plausible. you again say you dont want to ban guns, but then turn around and say that making them illegal might just cut down on crime, even though the actual facts say otherwise. again just look at those cities where guns are virtually impossible to get by law abiding citizens, yet criminals get them all the time. so much for your thought that making guns illegal would make it harder from criminals to get guns, heck the gang members in LA get them by the truck load.
(a) we are talking about guns AND gun control... The Lithuanian non-gun death rate has nothing to do with that. Lets stick to apples and apples.
Guns and murders is the topic. It is apples and apples. The point is the people, not the guns, are the problem.
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(b) So, by your definition, if a country has gun control, yet there is one (1) gun in that country, it is a failure?
millions of guns is not 1.
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