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BS. Nothing in that article indicates any violation. They where allowed 150 mile rang on Missiles, and it was tested at 150 miles. Saying it "Could" be upgraded is not the same as it "was" upgraded. Also there is no mention of WMDs as in Chemical Agents, and a Misslile, in itself is not a Weapon of Mass Destruction.
You folks need to stop grasping at any piece of grass that comes floating by. Your former President Bush has already said a dozen times or more that "THERE WHERE NO WMDs IN IRAQ" live with it...its over..
You are clearly wrong but I really do not care what you believe.
From what I have heard from the others, Trump is the only one who said he would talk with him, instead of making "War" Noises. Or do you cherish the idea of Glowing in the Dark?
The weak Russians already backed down from the US causing the collapse of the Soviet Union. Having a "man" who is ~5'2" tall decades later when everything that is left is even weaker does not change that.
Putin plays for the home media but I have a strong feeling this bully would back down when stood up to, like most bully's.
You mentioned Georgia and Ukraine, and said it ain't NATO that's invading them. Although you forgot to mention that not too far ago, it was NATO which invaded Yugoslavia. Just conveniently let that piece out... And/or forgot to mention that it was Georgia that started full scale assault on a region which separate and independent status was agreed upon a treaty with Russia as a peace guarantor there. So, Russia had no way of avoiding the conflict. And you forgot to mention that half of the Ukraine is pro-russian and Kiev uses artillery and army on its citizens, and Russian army supports those regions, but isn't directly involved. Crimea is a different story, it was never Ukrainian in the first place.
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Originally Posted by TheWiseWino
Whatever the sins of the U.S. and there are many, perhaps the more pertinent question would be why did Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Albania Croatia, and the Czech Republic run as fast as they could to join NATO after Russia's "rebranding?"
a) For money and handouts from USA?
b) You join the strongest bully camp in order to not be bullied. Warsaw treaty felt apart, so there was nowhere else to go.
c) Russia never wanted those losers. "We can defend our land alone, we don't want to spill our blood and defend other countries" (c) Putin. - In fact, I think USA would gain much more if it takes the same attitude.
d) Each European country has long and bloody history with its neighbors.
Then why did they take them and set the Iron Curtain up? Why did they prevent people from leaving, even shooting some who tried to escape?
I know it is fashionable to blame the US for all the evils in the world these days but there is little doubt that Soviet Russia killed more people than Hitler. Stalin out Hitlered Hitler.
Then why did they take them and set the Iron Curtain up? Why did they prevent people from leaving, even shooting some who tried to escape?
I know it is fashionable to blame the US for all the evils in the world these days but there is little doubt that Soviet Russia killed more people than Hitler. Stalin out Hitlered Hitler.
I said Russia, not Soviet Union. Soviet Union wanted to spread communism across the world. Russia is just a regular capitalist country without the communist theology.
I know it is fashionable to blame the US for all the evils in the world these days but there is little doubt that Soviet Russia killed more people than Hitler. Stalin out Hitlered Hitler.
a) Stalin was Georgian. NKVD was created by a Polish guy with the help of Latvian guards... Should we say Soviet Russia? Or maybe Soviet Georgia/ Poland/ Latvia?
b) Soviets killed more Russians than Hitler. But it was part of a Civil War and its remnants. American Civil War was the bloodiest conflict where USA was involved, should we blame Lincoln for it?
I said Russia, not Soviet Union. Soviet Union wanted to spread communism across the world. Russia is just a regular capitalist country without the communist theology.
Well I would not say regular. In the last year they invaded a neighbor and are actively involved with supplying arms and forces in some kind of pseudo civil war in the Ukraine. Also they do not have a free press and the president seems to be running the country like a mafia IMHO.
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Originally Posted by brrabbit
a) Stalin was Georgian. NKVD was created by a Polish guy with the help of Latvian guards... Should we say Soviet Russia? Or maybe Soviet Georgia/ Poland/ Latvia?
The semantics really do not matter. Stalin was the leader of the Soviet Union and arguably one of the worst mass murderers in the world.
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Originally Posted by brrabbit
b) Soviets killed more Russians than Hitler. But it was part of a Civil War and its remnants. American Civil War was the bloodiest conflict where USA was involved, should we blame Lincoln for it?
Not all of it was part of a civil war. The Soviet Union killed its own soldiers and even returned POW's.
From Nikolai Tolstoy, affirms in The Secret Betrayal:
"Hitler himself urged Red Cross inspection of [German] camps [holding Soviet prisoners of war]. But an appeal to Stalin for prisoners' postal services received a reply that clinched the matter: 'There are no Soviet prisoners of war. The Soviet soldier fights on till death. If he chooses to become a prisoner, he is automatically excluded from the Russian community. We are not interested in a postal service only for Germans'."
Well I would not say regular. In the last year they invaded a neighbor and are actively involved with supplying arms and forces in some kind of pseudo civil war in the Ukraine. Also they do not have a free press and the president seems to be running the country like a mafia IMHO.
a) Last year is nothing. You need to look to at least last 20 years (since Perestroika) to get a handle of the picture.
b) The split in Ukraine is not pseudo. You can witness it even among Ukrainians living in USA. Western Ukrainians are catholics and their language is heavily influenced by Polish too. Eastern Ukrainians are orthodox and their language is influenced by Russian (as well as Southern Russian language is well influenced by Ukrainian language to a point where the difference is very minor). The history of 20th century and the attitude toward Russia is different between Eastern and Western parts of Ukraine. The economic ties are also different, eastern Ukraine is more industrialized and tied to Russia, while Western Ukraine is more agricultural and less dependent on Russian subsidies on electricity and gas.
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Originally Posted by Old Guard
The semantics really do not matter. Stalin was the leader of the Soviet Union and arguably one of the worst mass murderers in the world.
I did not challenge the fact that during the 20th century Communist Party and Soviet Union led to more deaths in total, than what was caused by Germans during 5 years of war. I heard 100 millions died in total, out of which 20 million died during WW2 (and therefore can be attributed to Germans).
However, when you blame Russians on killing more people than Nazis, you made a mistake. Russians were killed by Communists among which were all nations. Look who were leaders of the Communist party and Police force at the time and think again if you should blame Russian people for that -
Party leaders: Lenin (half-jew by mother, russian by father) / Trostky (Jew) / Stalin (Georgian)
NKVD leaders: Dzerzinsky (Polish)/ Menzhinsky (Polish) / Yagoda (Jewish)/ Ezhov (no information about his childhood, but he spoke Latvian and Polish...) / Beria (Georgian)...
So, be careful which nation to blame for the death of 100 million people, of whom most were Russian and Ukrainian.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Guard
Not all of it was part of a civil war. The Soviet Union killed its own soldiers and even returned POW's.
From Nikolai Tolstoy, affirms in The Secret Betrayal: "Hitler himself urged Red Cross inspection of [German] camps [holding Soviet prisoners of war]. But an appeal to Stalin for prisoners' postal services received a reply that clinched the matter: 'There are no Soviet prisoners of war. The Soviet soldier fights on till death. If he chooses to become a prisoner, he is automatically excluded from the Russian community. We are not interested in a postal service only for Germans'."
Some people considered WW2 as continuation of Civil War and Civil War as continuation of WW1. Similarly, as you can consider riots and Jim Crow laws and casualities/hostilities before the South was readmitted to the Union as a continuation of American Civil War, even if it was officially over in 1865. Same thing with "Collectivization" and "Great Purge" in Russia.
As far as shooting at retreating troops, or interrogation of POW, it was not quite uncommon practice at the time. The brutality of the war demanded many of those things to happen in order to out-power all-mighty Wermacht (remember, it took only 40 days to overtake France which is another european superpower for centuries)... Although, most POWs or soldiers who were outflanked and behind enemy lines for some time, were interrogated, but not shot. As well as losses during the war itself, were most civilian losses on the lands occupied by germans, or losses in combat. Those cases you had mentioned were a symbolic occurences at best during the most devastating times, but not regular practice. Obviously, there were deaths from starvation in Siberia, etc. But even those deaths were caused by War and the need to relocate industry out east and rebuild it for production.
Although you forgot to mention that not too far ago, it was NATO which invaded Yugoslavia.
NATO never invaded Yugoslavia. NATO provided air cover in both the Bosnian and Kosovo Wars as a result of the passage of UN resolutions requesting NATO's assistance.
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Crimea is a different story, it was never Ukrainian in the first place.
Ukraine declared independence in 1991, and was recognized as such a year later. At the time of Ukraine's recognition as an independent nation the Chrimea was part of its national territory. And as if that were not enough, the 1994 Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, signed in part by the Russian Federation acknowledge Ukraine's territorial integrity.
I suppose the following are in response to a rhetorical question regarding former Warsaw Pact nations joining NATO.
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a)For money and handouts from USA?
b) You join the strongest bully camp in order to not be bullied. Warsaw treaty felt apart, so there was nowhere else to go.
The Ukraine like most of the former Soviet Union has and would have received "money and handouts" whether it joined NATO or not. If what Pukin claims were true, then Ukraine's 2008 applied to enter the first step in the NATO membership process, if my maths are correct that was six years ago and Ukraine is no closer to being a NATO member than they were when they applied. Strange how sluggish a massive military threat to the Russian Federation can be
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"We can defend our land alone, we don't want to spill our blood and defend other countries" (c) Putin. - In fact, I think USA would gain much more if it takes the same attitude.
d) Each European country has long and bloody history with its neighbors.
Then I suppose one has to ask if that is the case what in the world is Russia doing in Syria?
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