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For me, there is a very good chance that abortion does terminate a "life", i.e. the historical definition of killing some one. I am not all-knowing, so for me, knowing what a serious thing that would be if it IS killing some one, I err on the side of caution. Caution with a capital C.
Maineguy's response is one of the few rational ones I have seen in this thread.
Pro-choice: A woman has the right to control her own body
Pro-life: A fetus is a human and as such has a right to life
Whenever two people's rights come into conflict it is necessary to determine which is the more basic right. Some may argue that a fetus is not a human person and therefore does not have a right to life but, since there is no consensus on this question, it would make sense to err on the side of caution, as Maineguy suggests.
Note that there is no religious aspect to this. If this were a religious question only, then it would be clear that the government has no right to ban abortion. Instead it is a question of civil rights.
Maineguy's response is one of the few rational ones I have seen in this thread.
Pro-choice: A woman has the right to control her own body
Pro-life: A fetus is a human and as such has a right to life
Whenever two people's rights come into conflict it is necessary to determine which is the more basic right. Some may argue that a fetus is not a human person and therefore does not have a right to life but, since there is no consensus on this question, it would make sense to err on the side of caution, as Maineguy suggests.
Note that there is no religious aspect to this. If this were a religious question only, then it would be clear that the government has no right to ban abortion. Instead it is a question of civil rights.
Or how about this--err on the side of the actual living, breathing human being who is already here and whose civil rights, as well as the right of determination of her own body, is in question? You guys are always so ready to tell a woman that she must always come in second to a being who isn't even formed yet. It's just another way of turning women into second class citizens whose main function must be as a human incubator.
The problem for you is that women are never going to go back to that, no matter how hard you try to make them.
Abortion is such a divisive issue. I'm curious what the strongest arguments are, for and against. Post away!
Kicking over the proverbial anthill, are we?? Meh, why not I'll play ball.
The strongest argument against abortion: They are living human beings that is being reclassified as "not actually human" in order to make it legal to kill them. We saw the same thing with the Jewish Holocaust. A certain group of human beings were effectively declared "not human." Hitler and many others considered Jews to be demons masquerading as humans. "Who cares? They're just a bunch of filthy Jews! It's not like their human beings. Kill em!" We see the same approach with the pro-choice movement. They absolutely refuse to acknowledge unborn babies as human beings. Common deflections: "It's just a fetus." or "It's just a lump of cells." or "It doesn't look human so it isn't." or "It doesn't feel pain anyways" ( <-- Debunked) ... and the list of excuses goes on and on and on. I think that in the distant future, people will look back in horror at the worldwide Abortion Holocaust.
Reclassifying any human being as non-human as a precursor to legalizing their murder cheapens all human life. You can see the evidence of abortion cheapening human life every time you see a girl or woman throwing their living breathing baby in the garbage. Society told them that it was their choice whether or not to kill the baby. You might say they just changed their mind decided not to keep it afterall. Or in those rare cases where the girl didn't know she was pregnant until delivering the baby in the school bathroom (for example) -- the girl might logically conclude that since her right to have an abortion was never given to her, she decided to abort after giving birth. All of those cases are viewed as murder, and rightly so -- but killing your baby a few months earlier is your Constitutional right apparently.
Between 1970 and 1991, the infant homicide rate more than doubled, from 4.3 to 9.5 infant deaths per 100,000 children under age one. The rate was fairly stable between 1991 and 2000, but the trend has been generally downward since then, and was at 7.2 deaths per 100,000 in 2013.
So granting the legal right to kill your baby before it's born has contributed to doubling the incidence of killing babies after they are born. Even though the numbers are down a bit since 2000, they're still much higher than they were prior to Roe vs Wade. As I said, reclassifying one group of humans as non-humans that can be murdered without consequence cheapens human life across the board.
The second greatest biological imperative after survival for women is to have babies and then raise and nurture their children. The legality of abortion posits the notion to women that "Your reproductive instincts and biological nurturing imperative is just garbage. Throw it away." And the unfortunate truth is that most women who have an abortion go through unspeakable emotional trauma. Many never forgive themselves. Women who have had abortions are six to ten times as likely to commit suicide.Source. I've never met a woman who had had an abortion who wasn't still haunted by it -- even decades after the fact. I hear about women who aren't bothered one bit by it, but I've certainly never met one. It seems to me that pro-choice movements and abortion clinics are selling an instant fix that all too often just leads to a whole lot of despair and misery that wasn't mentioned anywhere in the brochure.
There's a ton of other points that can be made. For instance, African American women and girls are wiping out a huge segment of the next generation of African Americans via abortion. Whites are doing the same to a lesser degree and are on pace to become a minority in America within the next 100 years. Abortion and society in general seeks to separate the act of human reproduction from human reproduction. When a man and a woman have sex, they're participating in the act of human reproduction. Quite often, a baby shows up -- right on queue and right when they were supposed to. Pro-Abortion folks would have you believe that human reproduction isn't really human reproduction and the baby had no right to show up when he or she did.
Or how about this--err on the side of the actual living, breathing human being who is already here and whose civil rights, as well as the right of determination of her own body, is in question? You guys are always so ready to tell a woman that she must always come in second to a being who isn't even formed yet. It's just another way of turning women into second class citizens whose main function must be as a human incubator.
The problem for you is that women are never going to go back to that, no matter how hard you try to make them.
There are just as many women and feminists and the like on the pro-life side as there are men. Abortion isn't and never has been a "men vs women" issue.
" It's just another way of turning women into second class citizens whose main function must be as a human incubator." If you are a woman and you believe your reproductive system is offensive, get it removed! Easy fix! You can get your tubes tied or a full-on hysterectomy. Most women actually like being women and like the fact that they are the wellspring of human life. But clearly you find this aspect of female biology offensive. Why is that?
Or how about this--err on the side of the actual living, breathing human being who is already here and whose civil rights, as well as the right of determination of her own body, is in question? You guys are always so ready to tell a woman that she must always come in second to a being who isn't even formed yet. It's just another way of turning women into second class citizens whose main function must be as a human incubator.
The problem for you is that women are never going to go back to that, no matter how hard you try to make them.
I agree with this.
I am pro-choice, to me, pro-choice means exactly what it implies - I am in support of individuals having choices over their medical conditions, including pregnancy.
For me pro-life means what is stated above and specifically - a pro-life/anti-abortionist is someone who feels that morally, a zygote, embryo, or fetus is of greater value to society than the woman incubator and therefore its right must always trump those of the woman and her family.
There have been many threads here on CD about abortion. I am a woman and I am pro-choice because I feel I know what is best for me and my family and my already living children and husband versus some stranger on the internet or someone holding a sign outside of an abortion clinic. If I chose to end a pregnancy, for whatever reason, whether it be financial, emotional, genetic defects of the fetus, disability of the fetus, rape, incest, whatever....none of those are anyone else's business but mine, my family and my doctor. A fetus is not more important to me or my family or society than I am.
To imply that women should not have choices in their reproduction health, again implies that they are not valuable to society as individuals.
And FWIW, I have never had an abortion. I would never have an abortion for financial reasons but I would have an abortion if a pregnancy threatened my life (and on this, I think VERY poorly of those stories of women who "sacrificed" their life to carry a pregnancy to term when they have a husband and other children, a mother is VERY important to living/breathing children having a dead mother is traumatic and life altering for children and I would NEVER put my children through something like that and think more of an unborn baby/fetus versus my already living/breathing children and my husband who would be devastated at my loss), if a fetus was deformed, if a fetus had a moderate-severe genetic defect, if I was raped, or if I was a victim of incest.
I do not think less of women who have abortions for financial reasons either as even though I wouldn't, I am not in their shoes and don't know what they go through and their reasons are theirs and due to that I respect them and their right to choose to proceed with their live as they see fit.
Since this thread hasn't necessarily gone the direction I had hoped, I might as well chime in with my stance. I've grappled with this debate in the past but finally landed at being Pro-Choice. Here's why:
Fact #1: EVERY pregnancy poses a fatality risk to the woman.
Fact #2: The fetus is dependent on the woman's body to survive.
To say that you are against abortion being legal, you must be willing to say the fetus's (or embryo's/zygote's) rights SUPERCEDE the rights of the woman.
When debating this with a Pro-Life friend, his response to the above was "She knew there was a risk of pregnancy when she decided to have sex. She should take responsibility for her actions."
While I personally agree with this idea of personal responsibility, a woman does not automatically give up her right to life once she has sex. (I can't think of any precedent for this other than someone who commits a crime, or willingly signs away their basic human rights)
I don't think most people (pro-choice or pro-life) are huge fans of abortion (I don't see a lot of Abortion parties or Happy Abortion greeting cards), but I think most would agree that a safe, clean procedure performed by a DR is preferable to a back-alley coat hangar job.
- You make women second class citizens if you have dibs on their bodies.
Good Pro-Choice arguments:
- You don't sacrifice one life for another
- You don't raise unloved babies
- You raise far fewer babies in poverty
- The unemployment rate doesn't sky-rocket beyond all imagination
- Save billions on healthcare
- Save billions on welfare and other entitlements which would be exponentially higher w/o abortions.
- Fewer desperate Americans, ideal for bad groups like ISIS, militias, etal.
- Slower degradation of the country/planet environmentally
Best Pro-Life argument:
- Babies are a precious gift from God. Wait, how can that be true when there are 7.3 billion of us? Humans can breed like rats, takes no love, no money, no planning.
The Supreme Court's definition of death is the absence of brainwaves.
Abortion should be legal up to the point where brainwaves are detected, which is usually 12-14 weeks, at which point you have a sentient being.
To take the life of a sentient being, simply because it is an inconvenience, is murder.
A benevolent society does not murder sentient beings for whimsical reasons.
Neural networks capable of supporting sentience are not in place until the third trimester of pregnancy.
Quote:
Consciousness requires a sophisticated network of highly interconnected components, nerve cells. Its physical substrate, the thalamo-cortical complex that provides consciousness with its highly elaborate content, begins to be in place between the 24th and 28th week of gestation. Roughly two months later synchrony of the electroencephalographic (EEG) rhythm across both cortical hemispheres signals the onset of global neuronal integration. Thus, many of the circuit elements necessary for consciousness are in place by the third trimester.When Does Consciousness Arise in Human Babies? - Scientific American
Consciously, Ray
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