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conservative here: many conservatives want to protect life. not me, the government needs to be out of it. if you believe in God like I do, then you know a choice to abort is between God and the person who decides to abort. as another poster said, not my baby not my body and not my choice.
conservative here: many conservatives want to protect life. not me, the government needs to be out of it. if you believe in God like I do, then you know a choice to abort is between God and the person who decides to abort. as another poster said, not my baby not my body and not my choice.
Do you feel the same about infanticide and other murders.
What about conservative women who demand that abortion be banned until one day they discover themselves pregnant at the absolute wrong time in their lives and look to get an abortion? That is one reason why I'm pro-choice, so those women can have access to a safe and legal abortion it they so choose.
You only approve of conservatives having abortions? Weird.
If you can choose to kill it I can sure damn choose to abandon it.
- D Chappelle
The problem with that thought process (as is the typical problem) is that Dave Chappelle is not recognizing that death can assist an organism, whereas just having less income for a person raising a child is purely negative.
That said, it's not a terrible argument. I just have a problem with it being framed as if death is always worse than abondonment.
We have child support because that's what's best for children. I could understand arguments against it based on the reasoning that a woman has the choice to abort, but a man doesn't have a choice to not raise the child...but that's not a complete refutation of the value of child support though. It's about what's best for the child...it's just kind of an unfortunate side effect that the male loses some freedom as a result of that...unless the male ends up as the one raising the kid. That sometimes does happen too. Men can get child support as well.
I might be comfortable...or not...with some type of contractual agreement someone can sign in which they give up all rights to parenthood over a child but also don't pay child support. I could see pros and cons to that. That said, that's because I'm rabidly pro-choice. Anyone who views abortion as basically wrong should probably not want that.
No..there are differences, although I think more people see the difference between a baby and a fetus as being larger than it actually is.
The way I see it there are four stages of development we should pay attention to in order to make our laws. Stage 1 is the stage that exists before the fetus is capable of experiencing pain. Before this point, there is way abortion can be a negative thing for the fetus. All abortion, everywhere on Earth, should be allowed all throughout this stage, in my opinion. The problem is that not everyone agrees on when that stage is. The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists say fetuses won't be able to feel pain until after 24 weeks. So does the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists in the U.K. The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists is a massive organization with dozens of thousands of members. That said, some people disagree with them. As a layperson, the earliest I've ever heard of anyone who stands a chance of knowing what they're talking about say that fetuses might be able to experience pain is 12 or 13 weeks, I believe it was, but they also said that the chance of fetuses experiencing pain before about 13 weeks...or maybe it was 12, is so low that it's not worth concerning ourselves with. That study also didn't say that the ACOG's view of fetuses not feeling pain before 24 weeks was wrong...just that it might be wrong. Also, some people argue that fetuses won't feel pain until later than 24 weeks...so it's hard to say and I'm not educated enough to know for certain.
Stage 2, in my mind begins before birth but after the fetus can experience pain. After the fetus can experience pain from an abortion, it actually has something to lose from having its life ended. This, I'd say, is the first time in which it could be claimed to be reasonable to consider restricting at least some abortions. That said, we'd still need to weigh the potential pain caused by an abortion against the potential suffering stemming from enduring whatever negatives are associated with being born, especially if there are birth defects, genetic disorders, poverty, or parents who really don't want kids involved, because those circumstances are all easily avoidable if the pregnancy is just ended now and another baby is had later.
Stage 3, in my mind, begins after birth. While it's true that a born baby doesn't understand death any better than a fetus...most problems for born babies having to do with parents who don't want a baby can be solved through adoption. Furthermore, at this point the baby has already gone through the likely unpleasant process of birth, and if its life is ended that will have all been for nothing. I'd say that'd be an arguement for banning the casual euthanization of babies, even if done painlessly.
I'd say stage four would begin as soon as the child is capable of being harmed by death. That would require a certain type of mental state that, in some way, involves an understanding of the future.
The best pro-life arguments always have to do with the fact that it's difficult to tell exactly when pain can be experienced, or what pain even is to organisms that think dramatically differently than we do.
That said, even the best pro-life arguments have to face the fact that, in our society, what we value greatly are these existential concerns, like fear of death and a desire for control over one's fate. We're more than willing to accept pain as a side effect of many medical treatments. We care little to nothing about the animals in factory farms that are experiencing stronger forms of harm than occur in abortions. What we care about is the personal freedoms of people who value free will, security, and a sense of control over ourselves.
At best, pro-life arguments are going to be advocating a hypocritical society, unless the pro-lifers are the sorts of ultra activist vegans who are frequently trying to convince society that meat is murder.
Also, there are no decent pro-life arguments against the earliest forms of abortion, when there is no way pain can be felt.
Also, there are no decent pro-life arguments from people who don't want at least some forms of late abortion legal in the instance of certain severe forms of birth defects and genetic disorders.
I would say the most opposed to abortion it would be possible for anyone to be and have their opinion somewhat rooted in reality would be for someone to want nationwide abortion legal up to 13 weeks, and have no restrictions on certain types of abortions that are done because of severe genetic disorders and birth defects, and they'd have to be the "meat-is-murder-shouting" type of vegan...and I'd still argue that their goals are probably causing the fetuses they're striving to protect more harm than good. Also, this "pro-lifer" would be totally fine with very early abortions...perhaps even preferring them over giving children up for adoption.
I say 13 weeks because I've never heard of any source that seems mildly credible that believes that there's a decent chance fetuses can feel pain before then....and a lot of people think it's much later. I'm a layperson...so it'd probably be safer to listen to the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists who claim its 24.
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