Dismantle the Public Education System and Privatize it!! (federal, support, propaganda)

[Katarina Witt]

My daughter applied to CU in 2007. My other daughter, in grad school at the UCHSC, applied there in 2006. My husband is a few years older, LOL!

Believe me, the physics dept at the U of I does not care whether you played football for Cal Tech's intramural team or not. They care if you can contribute to their physcis dept. Similarly, Cal Tech does not care if their undergrads were on the student council, Eagle Scouts, captain of the football team or whatever. I have a friend whose son is there right now, who did none of those things.

You are being very condescending about these "elite" schools.

[InformedConsent]

Originally Posted by Katiana

Believe me, the physics dept at the U of I does not care whether you played football for Cal Tech's intramural team or not. They care if you can contribute to their physcis dept. Similarly, Cal Tech does not care if their undergrads were on the student council, Eagle Scouts, captain of the football team or whatever. I have a friend whose son is there right now, who did none of those things.

No, the grad schools care about what you've done in undergrad. And it hasn't been just about the grades and test scores for some time.

Hmmm... The Caltech rep. we spoke with was very clear about how they view applications holistically. And, indeed, the Caltech Application Supplement asks for a list of activities, volunteer work, research, etc.

You are being very condescending about these "elite" schools.

I think you're being too sensitive about the elite issue. Elite schools are what they are. I didn't make them that way. I'm just expressing their admissions criteria, etc.

[Katarina Witt]

I like how you keep referring, every few posts, to the "elite" schools, and telling me the the U of Colorado, Valpo, St. Olaf, etc are not "elite", then tell me I'm being too sensitive. FYI, St. Olaf is ranked 54 in Liberal Arts colleges, yet you said yesterday it was one of these college where you can get in with a 900-1200 SAT. WRONG, buddy. The actual median SAT for the class of 2011 was 1320, middle 50% 1210-1410. Valparaiso is consistently ranked #1-2 in midwestern universities and the mid-range ACT was 23-29 as of 2005. CU is a nationally ranked university with several Nobel Prize winners, and a mid-range ACT of 23-28. As roseba said, not all the "elites" have every major; certainly many do not have my major. St. Olaf and Valpo both have high medical school acceptance rates, amd many St. Olaf students go on to grad school.

Some of these small colleges, and a few of the larger one, give "lip service" to the extra-curricular activities, etc, but when push comes to shove, it's grades and test scores. My DD's advisor was speaking of ALL grad schools. I would presume he knows what he's talking about, since it is his job.

Just what expertise do you have in college admissions?

[InformedConsent]

Originally Posted by Katiana

Parents should have options. People who send their kids to public school should be doing it b/c they think that is where their kids will get the best education, not b/c it's the only option.

Absolutely! My kids are/were not in the public school. That was the choice I made because I wanted to send them where they will get the best education. That's not the public school. The public school's educational philosophy rests squarely on the social reform model of equal educational outcomes, even though it means that most students (average and above) have been dumbed down to meet the equal outcomes goal. There is no way to change this - believe me, many parents have tried over the years and had given up in frustration. The stonewalling of concerned parents is complete. The administration is quite sure that we parents have no clue what's best for our children and therefore disregard our input in district decisions.

But, making that choice means I have to pay tuition in addition to the several thousands of dollars of my property tax bill that goes to support our local public school system.

It bothers me to no end that only the families who have the means to divert several thousands of dollars per year to private school tuition can send their children to a school that enables each student to learn to the best of their ability. Everyone else is stuck. How the heck is that socially progressive? It grossly disadvantages low-wage earning families and perpetuates the cycle of socioeconomic hardship.

Sorry, I'm really frustrated and discouraged over this.

[Katarina Witt]

Do you consider Adavanced Placement (AP) courses, International Baccalaureate (IB) course, honors courses, and the like "dumbing down" the curriculum? My kids had the above in high school, in a state that doesn't spend a lot of money on public education. They both received college credit due to their high scores. I always felt the school was treating my kids as individuals. There is no "equal outcomes" goal in my district or any other district I have studied. Only "equal opportunity", which, while it has become a polarized term, can stand on its own merit.

[InformedConsent]

Originally Posted by Katiana

I like how you keep referring, every few posts, to the "elite" schools, and telling me the the U of Colorado, Valpo, St. Olaf, etc are not "elite", then tell me I'm being too sensitive. FYI, St. Olaf is ranked 54 in Liberal Arts colleges, yet you said yesterday it was one of these college where you can get in with a 900-1200 SAT. WRONG, buddy.

I didn't say that. It was someone else.

Elite schools and international students were brought into the conversation as a result of the following comment...

Originally Posted by wade52

Aren't you amazed that a nation with such a substandard public school system... (sarcastic comment deleted) ...would have the world's top universities?

Originally Posted by Katiana

Some of these small colleges, and a few of the larger one, give "lip service" to the extra-curricular activities, etc, but when push comes to shove, it's grades and test scores. My DD's advisor was speaking of ALL grad schools. I would presume he knows what he's talking about, since it is his job.

Many of the top schools have far more highly qualified (test scores, GPA) applicants than they can admit. The only way to separate the applicants other than by geographical origin (which is sometimes a 'hook' if schools are looking for geographic diversity) is by their extracurriculars, leadership experience, community service, etc., and even in some cases their work experience. It's a value judgment to be sure, and sometimes colleges and grad schools make head-scratching mistakes.

Just what expertise do you have in college admissions?

I'm closely related to a very highly regarded college admissions officer.

I could tell you that St. Olaf is elite if that's what you want to hear, but my statement wouldn't carry much weight.

[InformedConsent]

Originally Posted by Katiana

Do you consider Adavanced Placement (AP) courses, International Baccalaureate (IB) course, honors courses, and the like "dumbing down" the curriculum? My kids had the above in high school, in a state that doesn't spend a lot of money on public education. They both received college credit due to their high scores. I always felt the school was treating my kids as individuals. There is no "equal outcomes" goal in my district or any other district I have studied. Only "equal opportunity", which, while it has become a polarized term, can stand on its own merit.

You're lucky, then. That isn't the case in every public school system throughout the country.

Our local school district spends about $11,000 per student each year and does not treat students as individuals, except for the students with IEP's - which schools are legally required to follow.

[truthhurts]

Originally Posted by Katiana

I like how you keep referring, every few posts, to the "elite" schools, and telling me the the U of Colorado, Valpo, St. Olaf, etc are not "elite", then tell me I'm being too sensitive. FYI, St. Olaf is ranked 54 in Liberal Arts colleges, yet you said yesterday it was one of these college where you can get in with a 900-1200 SAT. WRONG, buddy. The actual median SAT for the class of 2011 was 1320, middle 50% 1210-1410. Valparaiso is consistently ranked #1-2 in midwestern universities and the mid-range ACT was 23-29 as of 2005. CU is a nationally ranked university with several Nobel Prize winners, and a mid-range ACT of 23-28. As roseba said, not all the "elites" have every major; certainly many do not have my major. St. Olaf and Valpo both have high medical school acceptance rates, amd many St. Olaf students go on to grad school.

Some of these small colleges, and a few of the larger one, give "lip service" to the extra-curricular activities, etc, but when push comes to shove, it's grades and test scores. My DD's advisor was speaking of ALL grad schools. I would presume he knows what he's talking about, since it is his job.

Just what expertise do you have in college admissions?

I'm the one that wrongly said the school had a low SAT score. However, I admitted i was wrong, but by no strecth would this school be considerd elite. It just isn't. I have never heard someone mention St.Olaf when they are talking about elite Liberal Art Schools. Here are some Liberal Arts schools that 99% of people would consider elite. The seven sisters. Wellesley, Smith, Radcliff, and etc. People consider Williams, Amherst, Swathmore, and a few others. Most people would consider these schools elite.

I'm not sure why you have this inferiority complex about the schools your children attended or you attended etc. It makes no sense. I do not think anyone is saying the schools you, your children, or your family members attended are crap holes. We are just saying they are not considerd elite schools. Elite schools are usually some of the oldest institutions in this country with a long academic history etc.

Academically St.Olaf does not compare with the Liberal Art elite schools.

Take Williams College
90% of the freshman class graduated hs in the top 10%

St. Olaf only 54% graduated hs in the top 10%

Williams
SAT Scores range from 1450-1560

St.Olaf
SAT Scores range from 1320 Median (meaning half the 3,000 students did either better or worse) Big difference than the lowest SAT scores at Williams, which are 1450 and the higher end is 1560.

I could go on and on through a list of the top 10 elite liberal arts schools and compare them to St.Olaf's, but you get the point. Now, that does not mean St. Olaf is a bad school, it clearly is not, it's just not an elite school. Nor is Valpo, PSU, and whatever other schools you named.

BTW Talking about St.Olaf reminds me of Rose on Golden Girls hehe didn't see attend St.Olaf haha

Most people consider Boston University a great school, but no one in their right mind would call it elite. Elite is reserved for the best not the good schools. I only point it out because it is ranked 60th on the National list, so its clearly a good school, but no one would consider it an elite school. Elite status is reserved for those schools in the Top 10 or perhaps even top 30 depending on the level of competition within the groups they are being ranked. Hence why Valpo is not an elite schools even though it finishes number 2 in its region. It does not compete with extremely competitive universities. It is not remotely as competitive as say a list that consist of Duke, Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth, Georgetown etc

USNews.com: America's Best Colleges 2008: Liberal Arts Colleges: Top Schools

Hehe i swear that was my last post in this forum lol

[Katarina Witt]

Here are some of your comments about "elite" schools. You, in fact, started the conversation. So your spouse is a college admissions officer? What college?

Originally Posted by InformedConsent

No, the grad schools care about what you've done in undergrad. And it hasn't been just about the grades and test scores for some time.

Hmmm... The Caltech rep. we spoke with was very clear about how they view applications holistically. And, indeed, the Caltech Application Supplement asks for a list of activities, volunteer work, research, etc.

I think you're being too sensitive about the elite issue. Elite schools are what they are. I didn't make them that way. I'm just expressing their admissions criteria, etc.

Originally Posted by InformedConsent

Correcting misinformation again.

My comment referred to elite colleges/universities.

While your DD's college advisor may have said such, it isn't true for elite Grad Schools.

For example,

Admission to graduate school is based on a broader range of factors than just grades and test scores. - UC Berkeley Career Center

Again, the qualifier you've missed is [i]elite[/I]. You can't assume that the admissions matrix the Colorado public university system uses is comparable to any of the truly elite flagship state universities' admissions criteria.

(Interestingly, you ddidn't seem to know that the U of Colorado IS their "flagship" universtiy. Odd term for a school in a landlocked, almost desert state.)

UC Berkeley, U Va, U Mich, and UIUC (all top 10 Public Universities) not only consider high test scores and GPA's, they also expect to see a high level of participation in the extracurriculars, sports, community service, etc.

Really, this information is readily available from USN&WR.

Originally Posted by InformedConsent

International students are a significant contributing factor.

"More than 560,000 students came from around the world to study at US colleges in 2006. The international presence is particularly strong at the nation's elite schools and in science and math programs. International students as a percentage of total enrollment ranges from 20 to 25 percent." - Institute of International Education (provides the prestigious Fulbright Grants)

Originally Posted by InformedConsent

The IIE did not state that their figures were only for undergrad enrollment.

Several of the colleges and universities you listed above are not considered among the elite.

As for the University of Illinois...

Sixty-eight percent of international students are studying at the Graduate level, composing approximately 35% of all UIUC graduate students. - UIUC International Student & Scholar Services

Originally Posted by InformedConsent

That wasn't a value judgment of your family; the IIE stated that their figures were for our nation's elite schools.

Caltech's Graduate level enrollment is 38% International Students.

Originally Posted by InformedConsent

Again, the IIE's figures are for our nation's elite schools, not for all of our country's colleges and universities.

It is interesting that you also mis-stated this, as the quote from the IIE corroborates what the NCES says about total number.
It is conceivable that there is a total enrollment of 2.2 million to 2.8 million students in our nation's elite schools.

Originally Posted by InformedConsent

15 million college students do not all attend our nation's elite colleges and universities.

I'll quote this for you again...

"The international presence is particularly strong at the nation's elite schools and in science and math programs. International students as a percentage of total enrollment ranges from 20 to 25 percent."

If you don't understand this, perhaps you can contact the IIE directly.

Truthhurts published the list of the top 30 from USNews.

BTW, the main criteria for being a University of Illinois student is to be an Illinois resident. 88% from in-state. They state in theri catalog that they do not seek a national student body.

[Katarina Witt]

truthhurts, whatever you think St. Olaf is ranked 54th by US News in "Best Liberal Arts Colleges". And if all you can say about them is something idiotic about Golden Girls, you are simply showing your lack of knowledge (sorry, the truth hurts!). Williams is ranked # 1, in the 2005 edition anyway. So yeah, their SATs are higher. But a median of 1320 is not shabby. I don't have an inferiority complex. I was offended that you said it was some fourth tier college you could get into with a 900 SAT, only 100 points above the minimum possible score. And Penn State? # 50 in the National University ranking.

BTW, where did YOU go, truthhurts?