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Why does there need to be any justification for seeking justice in this life other than having justice in this life? i.e. Why shouldn't mortals seek justice in the mortal world, afterlife or not?
And religious people oppose "social and economic opportunity for the disadvantaged"?
We all desire justice, but it is the methods which we employ to get there that matters.
To someone who is a Christian, it is easier to tolerate injustice, with the understanding that those who are unjust, will someday get their own justice.
But when you are an atheist, justice(including economic justice) must happen right here, and right now.
What I'm really saying is, atheists tend towards "socialism". Because they see the government as a tool to impose justice(including economic justice).
Furthermore, atheists tend to be far more obsessed with "progress". And how they define progress, is basically improvements in material standards, technology, and economic and social justice. And they tend to be perfectly accepting of "state intervention" in achieving their ends.
Basically, atheism is by definition materialism. And it can produce nothing but materialism, and is always hostile to individual freedom. Its motto is "The greatest good, for the greatest number". And with it, comes "The end justifies the means" and "sacrifice the few for the good of the many".
You love Christian values? Great ,then you practice them.i don't want a bunch of hypocrites cherry picking bible verses and making laws according to the bible. We do need to tax these churches who want to be involved in politics, we need the money and they are out of their lane....
As I said, either morality is that which god defines as good and bad, or it is merely that which is deemed useful by society, based on various factors and circumstances.
Basically, is polygamy moral or immoral? You could make plenty of arguments in favor of it, and many against.
Some people think keeping animals as pets is immoral(calling it slavery). Others think killing and eating animals is immoral.
Without some unquestionable moral foundation, morality becomes arbitrary.
As I've said earlier, you've conflated atheism with materialism, wrongly.
I don't know why you wouldn't have an interest in thriving, sharing, creating, and building. That's the very heart of being human, of being a part of society.
When I was a teenager I read East of Eden, and one of the iconic moments in the book for me was the discussion of faith, and how faith was a gift to the faithful. To be able to believe, deeply and sincerely in something without solid proof, is a gift, because it enables the faithful to build a framework that gives meaning to their lives. That touched me, profoundly, when I read it. It informs all my discussions with people of faith, whatever their faith. I was not endowed with that gift. I don't have faith in God. I believe that you have been gifted.
But somehow, you think that atheists don't have a framework that gives meaning to their lives. I can assure you you are wrong. I am surrounded by beauty and joy. Because I don't believe in an afterlife, I understand how precious each moment I have is, and how short the time is that I have to share with my friends and family all the wonderful things that life has to offer. Morality for me is not harming others. I think about how my actions affect others, I try to avoid causing others pain. I strive to connect to the people I meet, to make them smile or laugh, to make their day better, because they make my day better.
Morality isn't arbitrary at all. It's seeing ourselves in the world around us, and in making that world a better place, we make ourselves better and happier.
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,330 posts, read 54,411,082 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010
Let's just throw the question of "Does God actually exist?" out the window. Religions are part of the moral codification that humanity has developed over thousands and thousands of years. So why do we have to reinvent the wheel? Why do we have to recreate events that ancient people already experienced and created religious taboos in order to avoid recurrence?
Now to your example, what if the first man gets away with it? What if he does it again and gets away with it again? Pretty soon, everybody is raiding everyone and everyone is killing everyone and it's chaos. Anthropological studies suggest that early tribal humanity saw about a 60% mortality rate via being killed by other humans (compared to about 1% today). It is in view of this total chaos that societies form and create solutions by creating laws and codifying morality into religion. Killing your neighbor and taking their stuff becomes taboo. Now there are rules against it. Not only that, but the gods or God will punish you for it -- just for added incentive. All behaviors that are destructive to society are outlawed and divine retribution is promised to the disobedient. It worked and has continued to work. Religion continues to be the biggest driving force for improving human society in the world.
PS: I'm still highly amused that the OP has posted a grand total of ONCE on the forums. Why are we feeding the troll?
As you say, "It is in view of this total chaos that societies form and create solutions by creating laws", but where is the evidence religion need be in that mix? There's evidence of animal societies establishing their own 'morality' and ostracizing individuals who violate their moral code, do you believe they have a god they base their behavior on?
You say " All behaviors that are destructive to society are outlawed and divine retribution is promised to the disobedient. " yet in our legal system there are no claims of "divine retribution", only the retribution of society itself. Why is that the case if the concept of 'the divine' is somehow necessary to establishing behavioral rules in a society?
What you are saying is that because atheists don't believe in God, that they don't believe in the future or don't care about the future. Which is completely wrong. Atheists have children, atheists care about society and progress. Atheism isn't materialism. You've conflated the two, wrongly.
Atheism isn't a rejection of values. It's a rejection of the belief in God. Atheists have many of the same values that Christians have. Atheists value honesty and integrity and empathy and generosity. They want to make this life count, to live it as well as possible, and part of making this life count is leaving a better tomorrow for their children and for society as a whole.
It isn't that they do or don't care about the future, it is that the belief in god, completely changes how you view the entire world.
If you believe that this life is all there is, you will make totally different decisions, than if you believe there is a heaven, or an after-life, or a god, or future judgement, etc.
I am not trying to disparage atheists, I am merely stating a fact, atheists tend to be highly materialistic, and their philosophy tends to by rather hedonistic(primarily pleasure-seeking, drugs, sex, etc). Atheists are overwhelmingly socialists, and most of them tend to have no children.
This isn't merely the product of "reason". It is the byproduct of the psychological effects, of believing that this life is all there is.
I have Christians knocking at my door on a weekly basis. Leaving literature wedged in the door jamb. Literature in the mailbox. Every week.
While the atrocities committed by ISIS and other militant Islamic groups in Africa and the Middle East horrify me, I don't consider those actions to pushing Islam at all. I think of them as action of angry and impotent radicals who unfortunately have come to control small territories in the world, and who think, wrongly, that these horrific acts empower them.
The Christians leaving flyers and invitations and pamphlets at my home, every week, are pushing their religion. That's why I single them out.
I can agree with what you say. just where I live now, don't have many people knocking at my door at all.
Now that does not mean in the past I have not, in a different area, because I have. I have gotten a lot of Mormons coming to the door.
It is not just religious people coming to the door, I want no one selling anything coming to my door.
A group as Isis I can see from who they are how horrific acts feels it empowers them, with their warp sense of ideology.
Hate to say this, but religion is also at the forefront of the root of a lot of problems. Pick a religion they all feel the one they believe in is the best.
It isn't that they do or don't care about the future, it is that the belief in god, completely changes how you view the entire world.
If you believe that this life is all there is, you will make totally different decisions, than if you believe there is a heaven, or an after-life, or a god, or future judgement, etc.
I am not trying to disparage atheists, I am merely stating a fact, atheists tend to be highly materialistic, and their philosophy tends to by rather hedonistic(primarily pleasure-seeking, drugs, sex, etc). Atheists are overwhelmingly socialists, and most of them tend to have no children.
This isn't merely the product of "reason". It is the byproduct of the psychological effects, of believing that this life is all there is.
Believing that this life is all there is means that this life is even more precious, and that what we do in this life is how we define ourselves. While that may make some more materialistic, that doesn't make all atheists more materialistic.
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,330 posts, read 54,411,082 times
Reputation: 40736
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz
We all desire justice, but it is the methods which we employ to get there that matters.
To someone who is a Christian, it is easier to tolerate injustice, with the understanding that those who are unjust, will someday get their own justice.
But when you are an atheist, justice(including economic justice) must happen right here, and right now.
So, either our entire justice system is populated by atheists OR it's not only atheists who demand justice here and now. WHICH is it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz
What I'm really saying is, atheists tend towards "socialism". Because they see the government as a tool to impose justice(including economic justice).
So, you'd have us believe religious people have no interest in imposing justice in this world?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz
Furthermore, atheists tend to be far more obsessed with "progress". And how they define progress, is basically improvements in material standards, technology, and economic and social justice. And they tend to be perfectly accepting of "state intervention" in achieving their ends.
Once again you single out atheists as if religious people have no interest in improving material standards, technology, economic and social justice. By that logic all religious folk must be living off the grid in caves without benefit of things like fire because that would be the work of those damn atheists and their progress, right?
BTW, just HOW did all those cathedrals get built without using the fruits of PROGRESS in things like materials and engineering?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz
Basically, atheism is by definition materialism. And it can produce nothing but materialism, and is always hostile to individual freedom. Its motto is "The greatest good, for the greatest number". And with it, comes "The end justifies the means" and "sacrifice the few for the good of the many".
You're trying to equate non-belief in 'god' with hostility towards individual freedom. I couldn't disagree more strongly. If anything, based on my experience being raised in the Catholic Church, it's religion that seeks to destroy individual freedom and force conformity to its own standards on its members.
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,330 posts, read 54,411,082 times
Reputation: 40736
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz
I am not trying to disparage atheists, I am merely stating a fact, atheists tend to be highly materialistic, and their philosophy tends to by rather hedonistic(primarily pleasure-seeking, drugs, sex, etc). Atheists are overwhelmingly socialists, and most of them tend to have no children.
If you want to see shining examples of materialism at its finest you need only look at places like Vatican City and places like the Crystal Cathedral to know that materialism is hardly a characteristic limited to non-believers. You're only describing human traits that are not at all defined by whether one believes in 'god' or not.
I don't know why you wouldn't have an interest in thriving, sharing, creating, and building. That's the very heart of being human, of being a part of society.
I have no idea what you mean by thriving? Thriving at what? To do what? For what purpose?
Basically, has progress really been progress? I mean, has the invention of the cell phone, or the internet, or the TV, or the radio, or the automobile made human life better? Better in what way exactly?
Isn't all human good, merely based around human happiness? Then why is it that humans have become less-happy?
I mean, isn't this the great paradox of the city? Where people living on top of each other, rarely interact, and are often incredibly lonely.
Technology has done nothing but destroy interpersonal relationships, and has overloaded us with stimulation, making us constantly bored, and in many cases, mentally ill.
Drug abuse is rampant. Crime and hatred. Children neglected. Irresponsibility and entitlement. On what measure exactly is this so-called progress?
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