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Your comparison between him [Wilson] and Lincoln were pretty good and quite valid, but I think both were very clear-headed and had equally strong reasons that were carefully though out in their plans, agendas, and the programs they both initiated to ensure their ultimate victories.
What I was thinking is that Lincoln was more masterful at focusing on his goals and achieving them -- which included a controversial and merciful peace to "bind up the nation's wounds." I'm unaware of any other civil war, where even the leaders of the rebellion were generally allowed to walk away in freedom. In England, a death sentence would have been the more common outcome.
Lincoln also managed to shepherd through Congress the Thirteenth Amendment to the Constitution banning slavery, a monumental task, as well portrayed in the 2012 Daniel Day-Lewis/Spielberg masterpiece "Lincoln."
By contrast, as well documented in "The Great War," Wilson didn't involve the Republicans in the peace treaty negotiations in France, nor was he willing to accept a compromise offered by Henry Cabot Lodge which would have permitted the U.S. entrance into the League of Nations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by banjomike
I don't believe the Germans would have ever won if we had not entered. By the time we got into the fight, the French had lost 1 million men, the British over 740,000 and the German-Austrians over 800,000. Those numbers don't count their allies' losses or all the civilians who died. The stalemate of the Western Front was simply too strongly entrenched that I think all sides would have become completely exhausted if we had not arrived and tipped the scales in our, and our allies, favor.
I certainly don't think that was the conclusion of "The Great War," which emphasized the crucial role of the Marines at Belleau Wood and the American 3rd Infantry Division in the Second Battle of the Marne in preventing the conquest of Paris by the Germans.
Without the declaration of war in the spring of 1917 by the U.S. boosting British and French morale, it's likely that the million men that Germany was able to transfer from the eastern front after the collapse of Russia, would have overwhelmed the demoralized French and British forces.
You should write up your uncle's story about being a runner for the Lost Battalion and send it to the National World War I Museum in Kansas City. It's a precious bit of oral history. Thanks for sharing it!
Whether you like it or not, as I considered the consequences of Wilson's hubris, I couldn't avoid thinking of Trump, as I can't think of another President since Wilson who was so dismissive of dissent and even informed, experienced counsel.
My reaction wasn't unique, as I read several reviews of "The Great War" where reviewers noted the relevance of the documentary to the current American political environment.
During World War II, when the U.S. was at much more risk than in World War I, President Roosevelt unlike Wilson and Trump recognized and valued the importance of a free press. Consider the roasting of George Patton in the American press after the invasion of Sicily, reporting which likely would have earned the reporters and editors lengthy prison terms under the Wilson anti-sedition laws.
If you disagree with my conclusions, say why, but if Trumpie brains shut down when faced with criticism of their Leader, I'm even more scared.
I have no doubt plenty of lefties and never Trumpers saw anti Trump comparisons in both that documentary and in their morning cereal as well. They don't seem to be capable of getting him out of their brains regardless of what the topic is. Your remarks further down in your post just serve to further reinforce my conclusion that you've let your petty partisan blindness ruin what could have actually been an interesting thread. I watched some of the series and found it interesting, and I may follow up on some of the youtube links suggested earlier in the thread. Perhaps I'll look on the history sub forum and see if I can find a more serious discussion on the topic there.
Rather back to subject, I have watched the first episode (two hours), and shall do the rest next week. I thought it very informative, and I was amazed at some of the photographs and film shown.
I recall to mind of one of the jokes that made the rounds after the war: "The Great War was a 100 year war. There was fighting for 5 five years, and then 95 years to wind up the barbed wire".
As it happens, I am also re-watching the Burns "Civil War" documentary. What a wonderful show. I also enjoyed the books by one of the interviewees, Shelby Foote.
I saw the last segment that aired this evening, very interesting. There was information shared about the stroke he suffered from in the last year of his presidency. He kept quiet about it to the American people, allowing his wife to basically lead. The historian who spoke about it considered it a great conspiracy.
It was a conspiracy. She was much younger than Wilson, and was his second wife. They had only been married a couple of years, and she was extremely dedicated and protective. I think she was intent on saving whatever she could of his legacy.
The timing of the stroke was the element that allowed her and Wilson's cabinet to get away with it- as it often is in the 7th year of a 2-term President, the routine business of the Presidency had slowed down and stabilized after the urgency of the war years, and the economy was booming just then. And the populace was still very happy and feeling triumphant after winning the war.
The stroke was kept very private, so no one will ever know just how serious it was. It was common knowledge that Wilson was impaired, but the White House officials maintained that while his body was affected, his mind was not, and all he needed was some physical assistance.
He could have been comatose or he could have been left unable to speak and/or write, but still functional in his thinking. We just don't know how bad or not he was.
Back then, the written word still prevailed in all governmental affairs, and secretaries did all the writing. His wife maintained she only acted as a secretary. That much was true, as he never made another personal appearance anywhere, but the flow of paper continued un-interuppted.
In a time when stroke had no cure at all, and was common due to the diet of the time, the public never pushed the issue, and for that year, there were no crises in Washington.
After Wilson realized his greatest goal, the creation of the League of Nations, was defeated in his home nation, he would have been nothing but a quiet lame duck if the stroke had never happened. Wilson requested the vote on joining the League be struck from the register before the Senate ever had a chance to vote on it.
This was his way of saving what little face he had left. He was able to get the creation of the League written into the Terms of Surrender, the documents that officially ended the war, but was unable to get his own country to go along with it.
He was already showing the affects of the great strain that all wartime Presidents suffer long before the defeat. The failure probably was the reason for the stroke; his blood pressure must have been extremely high.
His face in the last photos reminded me of Lincoln's. He was gaunt, very wrinkled, and looked hollowed-out, much like Lincoln's last portraits.
Wilson was so giddy and intellectual, that Stalin had some of the best ideas in governing the little people.
Wilson set out to destroy the individual liberties of the little people, so government could rule and make choices for the people directly, or face the noose.
Wilson was a big fan of Fascism and like Obama's cabinet when he came into office, thought communism was the perfect ruling ideology.
So the Constitution has been severely altered, from Wilsons, precedence law, over constitutional law, so politically appointed judges could authorize the government to take liberties directly from the people.
The 16th Amendment, put every American(the little people) into slavery to the government, they now had the ability to put a boot on your throat and take it, or kill you if you resisted...
Wow, crazy post:
Wilson was so giddy and intellectual, that Stalin had some of the best ideas in governing the little people.
- What does Stalin have to do with it. You do know he came many years after Wilson?
Wilson set out to destroy the individual liberties of the little people, so government could rule and make choices for the people directly, or face the noose.
- How many people were executed by hanging?
Wilson was a big fan of Fascism and like Obama's cabinet when he came into office, thought communism was the perfect ruling ideology.
- Which is it, Fascism or communism? They are opposites.
The 16th Amendment, put every American(the little people) into slavery to the government, they now had the ability to put a boot on your throat and take it, or kill you if you resisted
- The 16th amendment was ratified by the states between 1909 and 1913, becoming officially ratified in Feb 1913. Wilson didn't take office until Mar 1913.
They don't seem to be capable of getting him out of their brains regardless of what the topic is.
It's hard to get away from Trump when he is in the news every day. He's like a 3-year-old when it comes to demanding attention.
Yet when watching "The Great War," it's hard not to compare the two Presidents. Both dislike the media. Trump shouts, "I am the Greatest," and Wilson just thinks and acts like it (with kudos to Muhammed Ali).
It was a conspiracy. She was much younger than Wilson, and was his second wife. They had only been married a couple of years, and she was extremely dedicated and protective. I think she was intent on saving whatever she could of his legacy.
The timing of the stroke was the element that allowed her and Wilson's cabinet to get away with it- as it often is in the 7th year of a 2-term President, the routine business of the Presidency had slowed down and stabilized after the urgency of the war years, and the economy was booming just then. And the populace was still very happy and feeling triumphant after winning the war.
The stroke was kept very private, so no one will ever know just how serious it was. It was common knowledge that Wilson was impaired, but the White House officials maintained that while his body was affected, his mind was not, and all he needed was some physical assistance.
He could have been comatose or he could have been left unable to speak and/or write, but still functional in his thinking. We just don't know how bad or not he was.
Back then, the written word still prevailed in all governmental affairs, and secretaries did all the writing. His wife maintained she only acted as a secretary. That much was true, as he never made another personal appearance anywhere, but the flow of paper continued un-interuppted.
In a time when stroke had no cure at all, and was common due to the diet of the time, the public never pushed the issue, and for that year, there were no crises in Washington.
After Wilson realized his greatest goal, the creation of the League of Nations, was defeated in his home nation, he would have been nothing but a quiet lame duck if the stroke had never happened. Wilson requested the vote on joining the League be struck from the register before the Senate ever had a chance to vote on it.
This was his way of saving what little face he had left. He was able to get the creation of the League written into the Terms of Surrender, the documents that officially ended the war, but was unable to get his own country to go along with it.
He was already showing the affects of the great strain that all wartime Presidents suffer long before the defeat. The failure probably was the reason for the stroke; his blood pressure must have been extremely high.
His face in the last photos reminded me of Lincoln's. He was gaunt, very wrinkled, and looked hollowed-out, much like Lincoln's last portraits.
I watched some of it but not the whole series. I'll watch the entire thing when it airs on a weekend.
But wanted to note that racism in regards to America and the creation of the modern Civil Rights Movement of the 20th century was very much an after effect of WW1.
The war spurned the Red Summer of 1919 whereas there were over 30 race riots in America that summer and they were agitated by the fact that the black soldiers and families of those soldiers who went to fight for this country experienced the same type of discrimination and intense racism as they did prior to going to fight. FYI these race riots were primarily white mobs attacking black towns/neighborhoods. It caused a lot of activism to be spurned by a new wing of black activists and formed two distinct, separate ideologies - the old wing lead by WEB DuBois (fighting via the courts, heavy emphasis on promoting black culture - a result of which was the Harlem Renaissance, pressing for better education for black children, and heavy emphasis on political/civil rights of black people in an integrated America) and the beginnings of Black Nationalists based organizations, the notable of which was Marcus Garvey (focused on building within the race, emphasis on removing the negative of the adjective "black," focus on entrepreneurship and self defense).
So race and civil rights in America was heavily impacted by the War and I'm glad that Burns put this part into the program. To ignore or deny or act like that war and the racial atmosphere afterwards did not have a significant impact on our nation is willful ignorance IMO. It directly lead to the climax of the CRM in the 1960s.
"Racism" was a very minor issue with regard to the formative events and aftermath of WW1. To over emphasize this issue (which, in the scope of that event, was miniscule) is revisionist history.
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