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I normally don't take much stock in opinion pieces, but this one was well-written and gets at the core of a lot of the weird rhetoric from some people in conservative circles that I've come across over the last ~2 years (and especially since Trump's presidency began).
...we saw once again how conservatism, with its belief in ordered liberty, is being eclipsed by something different: Loathing those who loathe the president. Rabid anti-anti-Trumpism.
Quote:
With Mr. Trump in the White House, conservative principles were no longer the point. “How many times during the campaign did I warn everybody Trump is not a conservative? Multiple times a day,” Mr. Limbaugh said. “How many times have I told you: ‘Do not expect Trump to be a conservative? He isn’t one.’ ”
Quote:
That was a remarkable admission, but it is also a key to understanding what is happening on the right. While there are those like Sean Hannity who are reliable cheerleaders for all things President Trump, much of the conservative news media is now less pro-Trump than it is anti-anti-Trump. The distinction is important, because anti-anti-Trumpism has become the new safe space for the right.
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Here is how it works: Rather than defend President Trump’s specific actions, his conservative champions change the subject to (1) the biased “fake news” media, (2) over-the-top liberals, (3) hypocrites on the left, (4) anyone else victimizing Mr. Trump or his supporters and (5) whataboutism, as in “What about Obama?” “What about Clinton?”
For the anti-anti-Trump pundit, whatever the allegation against Mr. Trump, whatever his blunders or foibles, the other side is always worse.
But the real heart of anti-anti-Trumpism is the delight in the frustration and anger of his opponents. Mr. Trump’s base is unlikely to hold him either to promises or tangible achievements, because conservative politics is now less about ideas or accomplishments than it is about making the right enemies cry out in anguish.
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If liberals hate something, the argument goes, then it must be wonderful and worthy of aggressive defense. Each controversy reinforces the divisions and the distrust, and Mr. Trump counts on that.
Quote:
The ad hominem argument is rightly regarded as a logical fallacy because it substitutes personal attacks for a discussion of the argument someone is making. But on many talk shows, including Mr. Limbaugh’s, nearly every argument is ad hominem. Instead of offering statistics and building a case, it is easier to simply make fun of a Trump critic like Representative Maxine Waters, or shrug off a negative report because it came from the “lamestream media.”
This does feel like a major contributing factor in the breakdown in communication I've had with some people re: Trump.
I personally love discussing politics with conservative people (often because I find it fascinating to understand their perspectives, and want to find middle grounds on various matters) - but this movement feels very different to me. I feel like I can't have a rational conversation with people that subscribe to this mindset. As the article finishes with:
Quote:
Needless to say, this is not a form of conservatism that Edmund Burke, or even Barry Goldwater, would have recognized.
Last edited by HockeyMac18; 05-12-2017 at 05:15 PM..
The media is actually a bigger propaganda mouthpiece for the International Banking Families that rule the world through currency control than any political figure.
So while Trump is a statist stooge there is something in this paradigm that has the true powers that be upset hence the non-stop derangement against him in the controlled media.
I don't know exactly what it is and I doubt, highly doubt, it's enough to end the stranglehold the IBF has over all of us but it's entertaining which is at least something.
Liberals have become insane since we elected Donald Trump President and he has been doing an excellent job. Until the liberals stop acting insane, I'll keep making fun of them and try to faux match their insanity.
Liberals have become insane since we elected Donald Trump President and he has been doing an excellent job. Until the liberals stop acting insane, I'll keep making fun of them and try to faux match their insanity.
This kind of mindset is exactly what the article is trying to elucidate...
Liberals have become insane since we elected Donald Trump President and he has been doing an excellent job. Until the liberals stop acting insane, I'll keep making fun of them and try to faux match their insanity.
Ok, TT, you say "he has been doing an excellent job". What , exactly, has he done that is so excellent ? Give us some specific items that have enriched all of our lives or made America better. You must see something that the rest of us(sans his cult)are missing, because all we see is bumbling, mistakes, failures to get anything passed, chaos, and turmoil.
I would love to see a list of debatable accomplishments.
Liberals have become insane since we elected Donald Trump President and he has been doing an excellent job. Until the liberals stop acting insane, I'll keep making fun of them and try to faux match their insanity.
It's much easier to pretend that Trump is doing an excellent job and you can defend him with ease if you want to but in reality he's doing so bad that you can't really do that so if what you are doing gives you good night sleep then keep doing it.
This kind of mindset is exactly what the article is trying to elucidate...
Perhaps, but as someone who has no dog in this fight you have to understand that talking about the points in the article aren't going to change the minds of anyone who didn't vote for Hillary.
That's because even if you are correct (in that Trump is bonkers and yes...he is) people do not respond to the tactics the Left (or even established Right) tried using to defeat him.
It's been nearly 2 years into this thing. Let me help you out.
All of the Right and enough Independents would rather follow ANYONE not associated with the way the Left thinks, acts, and treats the people in this country.
It's that simple. The Left's ideas are equally as bad as the Right's ideas so it has nothing to do with that. People want an alternative not a constant scolding by people claiming to know what's best for them.
Yes, as a Goldwater guy there is much to dislike about Trump. Goldwater emphasized free men, free markets and free trade. His protegee Ronald Reagan expanded Goldwater's base with social conservatives. Sort of a neccesary deal with the devil.
Trump's natural base is Paleo-conservatives and social conservatives versus conservatives that lean libertarian.
Let us face the facts though that in my opinion and the opinion of millions of others Trump, with all his flaws, is still better than any Democrat. This is mainly due to the USSC, both the first two amendments were all but certain to be weakened by a liberal supreme court.
I personally love discussing politics with conservative people (often because I find it fascinating to understand their perspectives, and want to find middle grounds on various matters) - but this movement feels very different to me. I feel like I can't have a rational conversation with people that subscribe to this mindset. As the article finishes with:
This is one of those articles that could just as easily be about the left in this country, but the NYT never would've published it. It is impossible to have a rational discussion with my co-workers anymore. Pre-election we could have great policy debates, but Trump’s victory has the left bitter, vindictive and totally obsessed with the Russian fairy tale. Two of my co-workers are actually keeping spreadsheets of every business transaction they can find about Eric and Donald Jr.
Who does this stuff? Bitter, obsessed liberals, that's who. It's bizarre.
Part of the problem, as this opinion piece illustrates, the left still thinks Trump voters are stupid. You lump us all together as angry white males, not very well educated and just not as smart as our "betters".
You feel like you can't have a conversation with people who subscribe to this mindset? Do you have any idea how condescending that sounds? Maybe they're just tired of angry, obsessed liberals.
Remember, the Russian fairy tale is the new birtherism.
Perhaps, but as someone who has no dog in this fight you have to understand that talking about the points in the article aren't going to change the minds of anyone who didn't vote for Hillary.
That's because even if you are correct (in that Trump is bonkers and yes...he is) people do not respond to the tactics the Left (or even established Right) tried using to defeat him.
It's been nearly 2 years into this thing. Let me help you out.
All of the Right and enough Independents would rather follow ANYONE not associated with the way the Left thinks, acts, and treats the people in this country.
It's that simple. The Left's ideas are equally as bad as the Right's ideas so it has nothing to do with that. People want an alternative not a constant scolding by people claiming to know what's best for them.
While I understand what you are saying, you should understand that "the left" is just as diverse as "the right" is. There are lots of very rational people on the left - just as there are on the right (even if they're not as visible these days).
I'm a left-leaning moderate Independent, by the way - and I know plenty of people like me.
But this isn't even the point of this discussion. The problem that this article is getting at is the fact that instead of addressing legitimate concerns or issues with Trump's presidency, people that subscribe to this thinking go into deflection mode. Why can't we just stay on topic and talk about Trump without resorting to these attacks or logical fallacy counters?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockside
This is one of those articles that could just as easily be about the left in this country, but the NYT never would've published it. It is impossible to have a rational discussion with my co-workers anymore. Pre-election we could have great policy debates, but Trump’s victory has the left bitter, vindictive and totally obsessed with the Russian fairy tale. Two of my co-workers are actually keeping spreadsheets of every business transaction they can find about Eric and Donald Jr.
Who does this stuff? Bitter, obsessed liberals, that's who. It's bizarre.
Maybe some are obsessed with it - sure. But so what? Why can't we have a conversation about Trump without resorting to "but the other side!!!"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockside
Part of the problem, as this opinion piece illustrates, the left still thinks Trump voters are stupid. You lump us all together as angry white males, not very well educated and just not as smart as our "betters".
It never said any of that. You might have interpreted that from it, but it was not explicitely stated anywhere.
I also don't think it's lumping all Trump voters in - it's lumping all people that subscribe to this kind of rabid anti-anti-Trumpism into the same boat, though. There is certainly a difference as I know that these people are only a fraction of the people that voted for Trump.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockside
You feel like you can't have a conversation with people who subscribe to this mindset? Do you have any idea how condescending that sounds? Maybe they're just tired of angry, obsessed liberals.
Yes, because I like to stay on topic...instead of discussing Trump, discussions go either to Hillary (don't care about her, nor do I like her), Obama (why are we talking about him again?), antifa (they're idiots, and I think their movement is mostly stupid and ill-conceived), or some other irrelevant point.
You're also putting words into my mouth - I said "This does feel like a major contributing factor in the breakdown in communication I've had with some people re: Trump." And it is. If we can't even stay on topic, what conversation are we even having?
And I love talking about policy...but lately I keep seeing retorts lamenting the "liberal" boogeyman, further entrenching these people's minds to go further right. We should be trying to find compromise and talk to each other.
Keep in mind this is only with some people - there are plenty of rational people out there from all sides of the political sphere.
Last edited by HockeyMac18; 05-12-2017 at 04:58 PM..
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