The Reality Of Being Armed In A Hot Situation

[jojajn]

Originally Posted by Dbones

Yeah we get it, you want things to stay the same and schools to be shooting galleries.

What are you not getting?

[whogo]

I’ve read of plenty of cases where homeowners shot armed intruders.

[cuebald]

Originally Posted by lifeexplorer

Your point is?

Are you the police didn’t shoot him because he’s white? We all know white lives don’t matter.

It doesn't make any difference what color he was, unless you are selecting him for breeding purposes. Everyone bleeds red.

And no, white lives don't matter any more than black or brown or yellow or red ones.

[It'sAutomatic]

I can relay something that happened to me. I was robbed of a cell phone at gunpoint. The assailants took off rather slowly in their vehicle towards a park where I knew there were police. I thought myself to be very clear-minded and took off running after them, thinking maybe I could catch them or find a cop in a car.

But I wasn't thinking clearly: I had my motorcycle right next to me when I was robbed, warmed up and ready to go. And instead I took off running. I could have caught up to them and possibly done something if I was on my motorcycle.


I'm not against guns for self-defense. But anyone who assumes they'll be thinking clearly and making all the right moves like people do in movies is kidding themselves.

[banjomike]

Originally Posted by GotHereQuickAsICould

Quick-Witted Woman Saves the Day points out the obvious in more ways than one.

Not everybody runs away from danger.

That woman would be bleeding on the floor along with a bunch of the rest of you if he'd been spraying bullets instead of waving a gun around.

Glad you all made it out alive.

Yes. I watched it all, but was too far from the door to do anything. The lady's action was reflexive, and she just happened to be standing at the end of the bar, close to the doorway. The door was open and the edge was right next to her.
She was a fast thinker, though, as once the knife was jammed, she had the presence of mind to rush to the door and lock it. It had an old-fashioned twist lock that needed no key.

It was all just fortunate. Once the knife blade was jammed tight between the door and the frame, he ran off down the sidewalk. No one was harmed. The bar tender called the cops, but I don't know what happened afterward, because we left just as quickly as we could.

You're right. It that had been a gun, someone would have been injured or worse. Since the 3 of us were in the high-backed booth, about as far from the doorway as it got, I honestly don't know what could have happened to us, as I've never thought about the alternate possibility of a gun instead of the knife.

No matter what would have happened, there was no good outcome, for sure, except for that one reflexive action that stopped everything that could have happened from happening.

We were pretty much sitting ducks, as the circular table was bolted to the floor. The only way out was to scoot along the seat. There wasn't enough room to dive under the table without some major contortions.

It was all a total, complete surprise. It was a warm summer mid-week night, and we 3 had been on a stroll, just enjoying the warm evening. We didn't hang out at that bar; as we passed, we suddenly decided a beer would be nice. I was with a friend and his wife. We were all totally sober at the time, as we were still waiting for the beer when it happened.

I was in the Navy at the time, and my buddy was a Marine. His reaction was only a little quicker than mine, and both of our attention was paid more to his wife than to the doorway.

The entire incident took less time than it did for me to write it out here. 2-3 minutes at the most.

A rapid-fire gun shooting at a school would have to be worse than this. Far more people, more complications in all ways, and much louder and more confusing.

Stopping a shooter would be, even for the finest combat-ready soldier, would be entirely a matter of blind luck. It's happened, but extremely rarely in comparison to all the times a school shooter has done what he came to do. Because it is blind luck.

Here is another true story.

I've been around guns all my life. I've hunted with them and have killed 2 horses with a pistol I own. That gun has only fired 2 bullets. The empties are still in the cylinder.

I bought the pistol for that purpose many years ago after I couldn't find anything but a .22 to put a horse with a broken leg down. There are a lot of badger holes on our ranch, and once a horse breaks a leg in one, an agonizing death is certain for the animal.

I don't know how long her leg had been broken. I saw her come limping up to the band of saddle horses, coming out of some trees, dragging her front leg on the ground, from a distance away. By the time I got to her, she had quit trying to walk because the pain was so bad.

A .22 short was far too weak a round to kill the horse, and I only increased her suffering. We kept that gun to plink at cans and ground squirrels on the ranch. It's an old Winchester pump. Had to fetch it out of the ranch house, about 500 yards away.

I finally killed the horse by crushing her skull with the square end of a cruiser axe. She was a 2-year old filly, a daughter of a fine riding mare, and hadn't ever been ridden. I did halter-break her, and she was as gentle as her mama. It broke my heart to see her die so badly, even though I did the best I could for her.

The closest vet is 40 miles one way away, and a horse will try to walk on a broken leg until the leg is only held by the tendons to its body. They will try until they either die from blood loss or the shock finally puts them down. It can take them all day to die. Horses in agony don't scream. They moan, deeply and loudly.

Bought the pistol the next day, and it has only been used twice in the last 38 years. 2 bullets, 2 dead horses. They were both old friends who had given me many hours of happiness aboard them. Both were snagged by badger holes.

I have cried hard every time, and the only way to keep myself from shaking is to **** the pistol, walk up quick, and shoot as close and as fast as I can. A miss is more fresh hell for the horse.

Now if this makes anyone squeamish reading this, imagine what it would be like in a school.

Real life ain't Rambo, folks. Arming teachers is no solution at all.

[Ralph_Kirk]

The proposed solution is: "Arm and train the teachers that want it."

It's extremely difficult to prevent someone from getting into most schools with a couple of revolvers and a belt full of speed-clips and wiping out at least one classroom of children. Notice I said "revolver" and not "AR-15." The police might keep him from getting to the third classroom.

OTOH, I've trained (non-professionally--in a combat pistolcraft club in Hawaii) with Navy SEALs and Air Force Pararescue. Those men are, simply put, genetically superior beings (like Olympic athletes) whose speed, accuracy, and mental acuity are just plain beyond normal human capabilities. What I've learned is that it takes an immense amount of specific frequent (as in every 10 to 14 days) combat-oriented training to be prepared for something as simple as a confrontation with an armed mugger. The fact is: Very few police officers get that level of training, much less will school teachers get it.

I train at a range weekly, but I don't get out to do active combat training more than two or three times a year. If I skip two weeks of range training, though...I can clearly see a drop-off. Top-level musicians and athletes testify that "detraining" can start in as little as 3 or 4 days...the better you are, the more quickly you can detect the drop-off.

So we take the small percentage of teachers who would want to be armed, subtract from that the ones who have the time and ability to take and maintain the high degree of training necessary to be effective...and you wind up with a number not sufficient to make a difference. That's not a "solution" with which we can then fold our hands and think about other things.

The only workaround for this is a clear defensive reaction plan in which the use of firearms is confined to a very narrow purpose within the entire plan (if a firearm is used at all--a defensive plan should not count on it). For instance, you design the classroom for swift evacuation to a heavily protected area with only a single point of entrance forming a defended "kill zone," and train the teacher (frequent training--so that it all becomes automatic) to execute evacuation of the children and then take position with the firearm to guard the kill zone. You'd also make sure there is two-way communication from the safe room or protected area (and be sure to test that frequently as well).

The plan should be to escape--lock the front door and exit by a safe rear door--and if a gun is used at all, it's for nothing more than covering the escape.

[rbohm]

Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk

I guess the guys who think they are Rambo just haven't been caught flat-footed often enough.


I have. That's why regardless whether I'm armed, I'm more in rabbit mode than tiger mode. My primary aim is to get my wife to cover and then safety, and guard her escape as necessary.


If you armed me as a teacher, I would lobby all the time for, first, hardening the classroom or providing secure egress so that my tactic would be the same: Get the kids to safety, guard their escape as necessary. As it is now, classrooms are designed to be death traps. In some cases, explicitly so, as more new schools actually use prison plans for their construction.

ralph, discretion is the better part of valor. get the people you are charged to protect to safety first if at all possible. whether you are armed or not. i have no issue with that. personally i see a firearm as a last resort to save lives by stopping the bad guy. at some point however if you are armed, chances are if you get into a live shooting situation, its possible that you will have to use that gun against the bad guy. better to be prepared than have nothing.

[momonkey]

Originally Posted by WMak70

No, the reality is, untrained armed people are simply not effective in crisis situations, been proven time and time again. Police train constantly to sharpen their skills and reactions, teachers and other non LE people will freeze more often than not.


I have guns, but honestly would have trouble putting a bullet into someone. We all say we could, but I am not so sure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRgWB4gb3GE

[workingclasshero]

Originally Posted by cuebald

The gunman was subdued and his gun taken away. When the police arrived, guess who they shot...?

Exactly what we have been saying about arming teachers.

Police just shot the wrong man in a church hostage situation in Texas (WATCH)

so wait..your point is what

1. the hero did his job and subdued the gunman..... that's a good thing I would say

2. cops arrive and in kneejerk reaction shot the wrong person..... that would be a bad thing... a mistake by the cops

so the FACT is the hero did the correct thing... proves that arming teachers could be a good thing