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Perhaps men are more likely to get it, but Black men get it even more. Black men pretty much have the lowest life expectancy in America.
Agreed, but statistically race is a much, much smaller issue compared to gender in terms of police shootings. They're not even in the same ballpark. It's highly inconsistent that the social justice types are not marching in the streets over this "War on Men".
03-04-2019, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner
Blacks are outnumbered by Whites 5 to 1. Of course there are going to be fewer Blacks shot by the police. 200 million Whites vs 40 million Blacks. Whites are shot to death by the police at a rate of 0.2285 per 100,000. Blacks are shot to death by the police at a rate of 0.5275 per 100,000. Blacks are killed by the police at a higher rate.
I actually laughed at those numbers!
Roughly 5 blacks per 1,000,000 and this is some type of institutional racism. 5 bpm vs 2 wpm - oooooh scary problem. The police are out of control targeting blacks.
Maybe it has something to do with these numbers:
According to the Department of Justice, African Americans accounted for 52.5% of all homicide offenders from 1980 to 2008, with European Americans 45.3% and "Other" 2.2%. The offending rate for African Americans was almost 8 times higher than European Americans, and the victim rate 6 times higher.
Just saying! Let me guess they were framed by the racist system.
Absolutely, and I concur. The answer is simple - use the statistics in ways that favor your argument, even if it means a wildly inconsistent methodology. Rates and raw totals tell different stories, but if you jump around inconsistently, you can tailor a purely negative or positive story and "back it up with statistics."
True. Statistics in themselves are not entirely false. However, statistics can and are misused to prop up certain arguments.
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Absolutely. The per capita data, if we stick to per capita, means that police interact with black people at a much higher rate than anyone else. I couldn't hope to offer a concrete proposal to why, but I would suspect that a combination of factors such as profiling, geography (like high crime neighborhoods generally having more police interactions than lower crime, and black people having a higher population density in high crime areas than whites, etc), racism, economics, actual crime rates, etc.
Geography can be a factor in certain situations. If you live in a high crime area, you have a higher chance of being the victim of a crime. You also have a higher chance of witnessing crime. You are more likely to need to talk to the police if it means being a witness. Now, if you commit a crime, expect a visit from the police. And racism can be a big factor too. Dealing with racial profiling, someone calling the police on another person for simply being in a certain place.
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That is indeed the question(s) to be asked - why the vastly higher rates of police interactions? Methinks neither side of the arguments wants too honest a look at that, because it will uncover ugly truths that neither side really feels like examining.
I'm willing to admit that higher crime means higher rates of interaction with the police.I don't deny that with more crimes committed by Black persons, more Black people will interact with the police for that reason. Commit a crime? Expect to deal with the police. However, what is disturbing are the incidents of people being pulled over by the police simply because "they were in a certain neighborhood". Said persons could live in that neighborhood and still get pulled over. And there are incidents where a hateful or paranoid neighbor calls the police under the guise of suspicious person. This tends to happen alot to Black people and this can put Black people in situations where they must interact with the police.
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I agree with all of that. One reason it is easier for me to accept the totally unwarranted police interaction happening more than non-black people like to admit is because in my reckless youth, I was an OG anarchy-punker, with the requisite hair, clothing, etc that broadcast my anti-authority cred from a pretty good distance. And I got hassled by police for no reason all the time. One time, I was dressed most seriously scroungy and was walking my sister's dog in her very affluent neighborhood. Not only did the police stop me, they called the stop in, made me break out ID, and I was frisked for what I guess was drugs or weapons? All because I was wearing ripped up jeans and a leather jacket while walking a dog.
In some cases it can be about where you're from. I know one guy, a White guy, who got pulled over many years ago. Why? He had license plates from a certain county within his state. The officer that pulled him over had this "good old boy" mentality (this happened in rural Georgia). The officer hassled him because he didn't like Atlanta natives.
It doesn't surprise me to see someone pulling someone over for dressing kind of scroungy. I don't see it happen very often. However, it doesn't surprise me. I worked with a guy who had a bit of a scroungy look to him. He liked wearing hoodies. He knew that people would perceive him a certain way if he dressed scroungy vs if he cleaned himself up.
I grew up during the late 1990s/early 2000s. Skateboarders were a thing in those days. And they had a bad rep (I was bullied by skateboarders alot). From what I heard, the police had their eyes on skateboarders in those days.
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And my empathy for black people in that same scenario is magnified because I know I can put on nicer clothes and wear a more affluent neighborhood friendly jacket. Not much black people can do about their skin. Point is...cops hassle people for no freaking reason all the time, and I have numerous personal experiences that back that up. Shave a mohawk, wear bummy clothes and walk down he street smoking a cigarette...it's like a duck call for random cop foolishness. That said, I also did time as a cop, albeit in the military, and not every stop in totally unwarranted. Sometimes, it is simply following proper procedure.
One thing I can say about this conversation is this. You are able to understand what this is about. That level of empathy at least shows some understanding of the situation. One can always change their clothes, but they can't change their skin color. As an individual, perception can't always been changed.
There are officers that will stop people for unwarranted reasons over petty things. Race can complicate alot of things.
I have little idea how being an MP works. I imagine that the procedure in military situations works differently than in civilian life.
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This topic has no simple answer really, and it's why I say there are a lot of truths on all sides that probably cause discomfort all the way around, so nobody really goes after the answers and we just shrug our shoulders and accept a wildly higher rate of police interactions with black people as the cost of doing statist/collectivist business. It really does seem like nobody wants to dig much deeper than that.
There are no simple answers. You aren't lying about that. Many people keep saying "well if you obey the law nothing bad will happen". It's far more complicated than that. Given the climate of siege we're all dealing with, some people don't care.
The only thing I get out of it is that you lie alot.
Yet you have no proof and wont provide any.
Granted you were raised by someone who didn't teach you how to be a man and not rely on government handouts.
So when Obama said the biggest obstacle to success for blacks is the lack of fathers he lied? He said the same thing I did but because he's black it's somehow different?
And the "racism state" created high levels of poverty which chased people into welfare for relief.
America is upwardly mobile. When people rely on handouts, that's not being upwardly mobile. When the party of the klan bought the poor with handouts starting with FDR, is it any wonder that black unemployment became higher than white unemployment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
You keep leaving that out. If single parents is the antecedents of welfare, welfare is the antecedent of racism for blacks. Ergo, its not the welfare state that is the root cause of high black single parent homes, its the "racism state".
Then why are there poor whites, especially in the south? Is that racism too or do you have another explanation?
A shoulder shrug answer that simply reinforces various stereotypes.
I think the much higher rate of police interaction with black people goes well beyond the accepted bromides.
Based on what? Because you said so? Your shoulder shrug? lol
Explain to me why children from single parent families have a much higher rate of criminality than children from 2 parent families? Is that a stereotype too?
True. Statistics in themselves are not entirely false. However, statistics can and are misused to prop up certain arguments.
Only to people like you who can't put 2 and 2 together because of a twisted agenda that doesn't include the truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner
Geography can be a factor in certain situations. If you live in a high crime area, you have a higher chance of being the victim of a crime. You also have a higher chance of witnessing crime. You are more likely to need to talk to the police if it means being a witness. Now, if you commit a crime, expect a visit from the police. And racism can be a big factor too. Dealing with racial profiling, someone calling the police on another person for simply being in a certain place.
Blacks do not deal with racial profiling day to day. it's unusual. Try walking without a crutch.
If you live in a high crime area you live in a minority neighborhood. Plain and simple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner
I'm willing to admit that higher crime means higher rates of interaction with the police.I don't deny that with more crimes committed by Black persons, more Black people will interact with the police for that reason. Commit a crime? Expect to deal with the police. However, what is disturbing are the incidents of people being pulled over by the police simply because "they were in a certain neighborhood". Said persons could live in that neighborhood and still get pulled over. And there are incidents where a hateful or paranoid neighbor calls the police under the guise of suspicious person. This tends to happen alot to Black people and this can put Black people in situations where they must interact with the police.
No it doesn't happen alot and you have no proof. Knee jerk reactionaries will think so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner
In some cases it can be about where you're from. I know one guy, a White guy, who got pulled over many years ago. Why? He had license plates from a certain county within his state. The officer that pulled him over had this "good old boy" mentality (this happened in rural Georgia). The officer hassled him because he didn't like Atlanta natives.
One data point means it happens all the time right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner
It doesn't surprise me to see someone pulling someone over for dressing kind of scroungy. I don't see it happen very often. However, it doesn't surprise me. I worked with a guy who had a bit of a scroungy look to him. He liked wearing hoodies. He knew that people would perceive him a certain way if he dressed scroungy vs if he cleaned himself up.
It should surprise you because it is extremely rare. That it doesn't surprise you is your fault.
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner
I grew up during the late 1990s/early 2000s. Skateboarders were a thing in those days. And they had a bad rep (I was bullied by skateboarders alot). From what I heard, the police had their eyes on skateboarders in those days.
Because you heard? lol Another incident of you being gullible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner
One thing I can say about this conversation is this. You are able to understand what this is about. That level of empathy at least shows some understanding of the situation. One can always change their clothes, but they can't change their skin color. As an individual, perception can't always been changed.
You don't understand much, except you don't want to loose your handouts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner
There are officers that will stop people for unwarranted reasons over petty things. Race can complicate alot of things.
It rarely happens. That you think it does, is on you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner
I have little idea how being an MP works. I imagine that the procedure in military situations works differently than in civilian life.
You don't understand a lot of things but it doesn't stop you from commenting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner
There are no simple answers. You aren't lying about that. Many people keep saying "well if you obey the law nothing bad will happen". It's far more complicated than that. Given the climate of siege we're all dealing with, some people don't care.
It is extremely simple unless one has a twisted agenda.
Unlike you, I was raised correctly and taught to work for things. Accomplishments count and that working for things makes one appreciate it more. You on the other hand welcome handouts and the welfare state.
America is upwardly mobile. When people rely on handouts, that's not being upwardly mobile. When the party of the klan bought the poor with handouts starting with FDR, is it any wonder that black unemployment became higher than white unemployment.
Then why are there poor whites, especially in the south? Is that racism too or do you have another explanation?
The South has not been a region high on handouts. The South was always poorer and further behind than the rest of the USA. Slavery pretty much screwed up the South's development. You had a few wealthy people White people, alot of poor Whites, and then you had the slaves. Slaves were forbidden to know how to read. Poor Whites did not have many resources in terms of getting more educated, and the White elites pretty much looked out for themselves. Poor Whites didn't have to worry about being looked down on for being White. The idea was "I'm poor, but at least I'm not Black".
Education in the South has always lagged behind the rest of the country, even after the Civil War. However, education was treated by many leaders as optional. Schools were not widely available for everybody. More schools became available in the 20th century. Now, as poor as many Whites were in the South, Blacks were even poorer, and basically oppressed in the South. White schools were still better equipped than Black schools.
And something else. Black unemployment has been higher than White unemployment for years, before any "handouts". One thing did drive black unemployment down: World War II. Blacks were leading the USA in out of wedlock births and single parent households BEFORE "handouts" began. In fact, there was a welfare program for indigent mothers. Because of how the program was doled out(the individual states had to dole it out), Black women were often excluded from it. Black women had to go and get jobs as maids and other lowly jobs. Black women were far more likely to be single parents than women of other ethnicities. Black men have historically had a harder time getting jobs than men of any other race. First fired, last hired. Pretty much been the rule for Black men. When the Great Depression hit, Blacks, who were already poorer than most other groups, lost their jobs first, especially men.
Only to people like you who can't put 2 and 2 together because of a twisted agenda that doesn't include the truth.
Blacks do not deal with racial profiling day to day. it's unusual. Try walking without a crutch.
If you live in a high crime area you live in a minority neighborhood. Plain and simple.
No it doesn't happen alot and you have no proof. Knee jerk reactionaries will think so.
One data point means it happens all the time right?
It should surprise you because it is extremely rare. That it doesn't surprise you is your fault.
Because you heard? lol Another incident of you being gullible.
You don't understand much, except you don't want to loose your handouts.
It rarely happens. That you think it does, is on you.
You don't understand a lot of things but it doesn't stop you from commenting.
It is extremely simple unless one has a twisted agenda.
Unlike you, I was raised correctly and taught to work for things. Accomplishments count and that working for things makes one appreciate it more. You on the other hand welcome handouts and the welfare state.
The bold statement right there lets me know you know nothing about me. I was taught the value of hard work. I grew up in a middle class, two parent home. You know nothing about me. I went to college, got my degree, and still dealt with alot of problems in my life. Your stupid assumptions about me tell me that you are just here to gaslight me. It tells me that you probably have a bigoted mindset and hide it with statement that show a lack of empathy on your part.
I also know the experiences I've dealt with and seen with my own eyes. Just because you don't want to believe me doesn't mean they didn't happen.
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