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Forcing people to do things is slavery by definition.
Yeah. It's government coercion, which is fundamentally a bad thing, but that doesn't mean we can't acknowledge that it can have positive effects at times even if the moral foundation is rotten.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jm1982
Yeah but by supposedly “helping “ workers it’s backfiring because they are making labor too expensive for the small businesses .
Thus it’ll be hard for lower skilled workers to find work , not everyone can work as a software engineer .
Also it’s a crappier experience for the consumer .
Locally it's a negative for all the reasons you stated. Given you're in LA I'm sure you'd rather it not be done there. Just pointing out a silver lining for the rest of the country. Over the long term we'll all benefit from the productivity improvements, even if it is a bad policy over the short and medium term for the cities implementing it (and potentially long term too if the damage from people not getting early work experience is greater than the productivity improvements developed).
Over the long term I'm not sure it will be a crappier experience for the consumer. It is today. Someone might figure out how to do it well.
Skyrocketing rents had nothing to do with it. [sarcasm]
Im against $15 but there are many factors than just wages.
I know a guy who gets a hideous amount of money to clean a canvas awning in NYC. The building owner wants to get rid of the awning. NYC permit + lowest bid contractor wants like a million dollars to remove it. IIRC the permit was like 100K. This is a $10K-15K job in NJ.
Add source fail. You could go to Huff to get a counter argument.
NYC is a basket case of silly over-regulation and money mis-management. It really is infuriating but that is just what happens when you load up an island with free-loaders and liberals.
There is no reason to be homeless. Accept the fact that one will have to live in less expensive housing with roommates and one will not be living the lifestyle one wishes to until they improve THEIR OWN situation. NO ONE owes anyone else a certain standard of living. Period.
You continue to show your ignorance of the homeless and the poor. There are many reasons people are homeless being laid off, mental problems, being physically disabled, not having a good upbringing but we know you do not care you just will throw out blame not matter what evidence people show you.
Just stop stealing. That’s all we are asking. Keep your hands off the property of others. Ask for something if you want it. Don’t steal it. You can drop labels on everything, and that’s fine, but just stop stealing.
Using money for the good of a community is not stealing it is what good communities do. Giving to others for the good of the community has been happening all the way back to when we lived in tribes. If you do not your money to go to other people I suggest moving to an island where you can keep all your money.
Using money for the good of a community is not stealing it is what good communities do. Giving to others for the good of the community has been happening all the way back to when we lived in tribes. If you do not your money to go to other people I suggest moving to an island where you can keep all your money.
No, no hiding behind the “community”. Theft is theft, and communities that sanction and excuse theft are agents of evil, not good. A moral community respects the individual rights of its citizens, and features voluntary cooperation and asking for help, not demanding it. Communities that mandate redistribution of the property of some citizens for the unearned and undeserved benefit of other citizens are not communities at all, but are mobs of thieves and they can go straight to Hell. Such “communities” be damned.
You continue to show your ignorance of the homeless and the poor. There are many reasons people are homeless being laid off, mental problems, being physically disabled, not having a good upbringing but we know you do not care you just will throw out blame not matter what evidence people show you.
Neither bad luck or bad character excuse theft. No amount of sob stories will justify or legitimize the theft and reassignment of private property. You want help? Ask for it. You don’t get to demand it or use force to steal it.
This minimum wage won't kill dining in any city, but it will shrink the amount of available jobs in any sectors that depend on low wage workers.
In addition, it will shrink the number of businesses in any of these sectors.
A percentage of minorities will vacate their housing and leave the city as a result, leaving room for the professional class to fill the gap and rents to be raised where this occurs in regions that have gentrification pressure on housing. In essence, and especially in cities like San Francisco or neighborhoods in NYC where there is gentrification pressure on housing, this will accelerate he gentrification process.
After the professionals start moving into the vacated apartments, prices will go up for goods, rent, and services and then the jobs and businesses will return as the margins will have again reached even ground. As they always will and do.
In sum, all his does is accelerate the natural process that raises the price of everything in any city. If I were a mayor, and there was an especially stubborn group of people that I wanted out to make room for gentrification, raising the minimum wage would be my first step.
It would have the double benefit of concealing my intentions because the poor think that I am doing something good for them, because they lack the ability to view events in the context of a medium to long term time horizon. They only see an immediate benefit. Hence, I would get to both play the good guy and set the events in motion that will work to reduce their available employment and thus clear them out.
Low skill liberal arts lefties and / or minorities (together comprising the urban lower class) can't do this math and / or they see themselves as benefiting from the game of musical chairs that the wage increase will force.
In reality, eventually prices will rise to nullify the purchasing power from their wage increase. Some will hang on, but their numbers will be reduced when the cycle completes.
This minimum wage won't kill dining in any city, but it will shrink the amount of available jobs in any sectors that depend on low wage workers.
In addition, it will shrink the number of businesses in any of these sectors.
A percentage of minorities will vacate their housing and leave the city as a result, leaving room for the professional class to fill the gap and rents to be raised where this occurs in regions that have gentrification pressure on housing. In essence, and especially in cities like San Francisco or neighborhoods in NYC where there is gentrification pressure on housing, this will accelerate he gentrification process.
After the professionals start moving into the vacated apartments, prices will go up for goods, rent, and services and then the jobs and businesses will return as the margins will have again reached even ground. As they always will and do.
In sum, all his does is accelerate the natural process that raises the price of everything in any city. If I were a mayor, and there was an especially stubborn group of people that I wanted out to make room for gentrification, raising the minimum wage would be my first step.
It would have the double benefit of concealing my intentions because the poor think that I am doing something good for them, because they lack the ability to view events in the context of a medium to long term time horizon. They only see an immediate benefit. Hence, I would get to both play the good guy and set the events in motion that will work to reduce their available employment and thus clear them out.
Low skill liberal arts lefties and / or minorities (together comprising the urban lower class) can't do this math and / or they see themselves as benefiting from the game of musical chairs that the wage increase will force.
In reality, eventually prices will rise to nullify the purchasing power from their wage increase. Some will hang on, but their numbers will be reduced when the cycle completes.
I agree. The ironic part is that the liberal city mayors claim they care about the poor and immigrant . In NYC and L.A most small business are owned and operated by immigrants .
This will hurt the mom and pop immigrant owned shops more than the multinationals .
The big chains can grow more in China and other countries where profit margins are better .
They can afford the technology to automate the small businesses won’t .
I can see a lot of these retail places being converted to office space for tech companies or for luxury housing of course that won’t benefit the poor they don’t have the skills to work as a software engineer or live in a hip loft.
I’d rather see wages rise due to the market versus some politician that wants to placate low wage workers .
Reality is min wage jobs will become harder to get and the employers will demand a lot more if they are forced to pay $15 hr ,
No, no hiding behind the “community”. Theft is theft, and communities that sanction and excuse theft are agents of evil, not good. A moral community respects the individual rights of its citizens, and features voluntary cooperation and asking for help, not demanding it. Communities that mandate redistribution of the property of some citizens for the unearned and undeserved benefit of other citizens are not communities at all, but are mobs of thieves and they can go straight to Hell. Such “communities” be damned.
Until said community member looses their job and house and now the rest of the community uses the police force to harass them because they exist on the street or are sleeping in the woods.
A great majority of people that tout taxation is theft are the same people that support draconian laws against the homeless. If you want to see moral bankruptcy you might want to look in the mirror if you are voting for policy or candidates that support "crack downs" on the homeless. Double plus if you are a business owner or manager that put them in that situation to start with via a lay off.
I agree. The ironic part is that the liberal city mayors claim they care about the poor and immigrant . In NYC and L.A most small business are owned and operated by immigrants .
This will hurt the mom and pop immigrant owned shops more than the multinationals .
The big chains can grow more in China and other countries where profit margins are better .
They can afford the technology to automate the small businesses won’t .
I can see a lot of these retail places being converted to office space for tech companies or for luxury housing of course that won’t benefit the poor they don’t have the skills to work as a software engineer or live in a hip loft.
I’d rather see wages rise due to the market versus some politician that wants to placate low wage workers .
Reality is min wage jobs will become harder to get and the employers will demand a lot more if they are forced to pay $15 hr ,
The politicians "placate" to low wage workers because they are the VAST majority of people. The low wage workers ARE the electorate. Somewhere around 80% of the USA population are losers in capitalism to some degree (obviously some worse than others).
Since these are state and city elections you have no leg to stand on, the decisions of the electorate is states rights. IF you dont like it leave NY.
I realize automation is every wanna be slave holders wet dream (since they cant own slaves), but sorry to say automation is EXPENSIVE and will remain so for the foreseeable future. I get that hateful business owners want to pay peanuts to prop up their sorry excuse for a buisenss plan and then tout automation in some kind of spoiled child like tanturm but automation is expensive and onerous to implement.
Thats why there are only like 2 fully automated mcdonalds, its simply proof of concept, just because its technically possible does not make it a good buisenss idea.
As an engineer I personally love automation and controls, but from a technical perspective not because I get off on watching people die on the streets due to lack of income from a lay off.
I would not be surprised if there was a special dark net youtube channel where rich people can pay to watch people die of expose on the streets due to lack of resources. Pop some pop corn and watch the "dirty bums" freeze to death.
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