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Thanks that's informative, it's sort of in the line of what my relative was saying, although he was saying the H-1B's actually made a whole lot less. Surprising that employers would go through all the hassle to replace an American worker with an H-1B for that little in savings, seems like all the administration alone would eat up any savings from a cheaper hire.
The advantage of an H1 is that the employee is basically an indentured servant. They can't work for anyone else unless that company has a visa of their own to issue. The H1, and L1 for that matter only allow you to work for the sponsoring company, and if you quit/lose your job you have 30 days to get out.
They hire them because they are just as good if not better and at a lower wage. Any wage saving is a saving. They are very intelligent and very dedicated workers.
That may be the case, but it sounds from what you're describing, the company is breaking the law. That's what's a bit puzzling, because the law on the H-1B if not the enforcement of it, is pretty explicit, it says the H-1B's can be taken in only if there aren't American citizens to do the job already, and one of the ways to verify that is that the foreign worker must be paid the same as American workers, and receive the same benefits. The law around the visa explicit forbids bringing in a foreign worker if Americans are available. And from what you're saying, the company preferred them because they got lower wages than Americans who could also do the job but would get paid more. IOW violating the law surrounding H-1B hiring. That means a huge risk to the company and extra costs from things like lawyer's fees, which is why I'm puzzled a company would take, basically, an existential risk to bring an H-1B on board for so little savings.
Although it didn't happen all that often, I do remember in some cases during the Obama admininstration, when a company was heavily fined or totally shut down for H-1B abuse. The problem is the enforcement was too inconsistent and the ones that caught either were really egregious or just plain stupid and up-front with their abuses, which is why a lot of companies seem to think they can get away with it. But what you've described is very much illegal no matter how good those workers are, I'm not doubting the qualifications of the foreign workers but the laws of every country in the world (even in the Gulf States with all those foreign workers) give preference to their own workers from pure necessity, after all they're the ones with a long term stake in the country. Although enforcement and some loopholes may be an issue, the stated law around the H-1B is clear that foreign workers can be brought in only for positions that are totally unfillable and documented labor shortages, which is common-sense-- it doesn't make sense to saddle American students with $1.5 trillion in student loans and then make good STEM jobs even more difficult for them to get to work off the debt. The countries of these foreign workers should be doing a better job of providing jobs for them, just as our country focuses first on our own citizens for jobs and good salaries.
That's why even with the weak enforcement under GW Bush and Obama, there was still a risk in violating the specific requirements for the H-1B and I would imagine, is probably a lot higher now with Trump in office, though that's what I'm unsure about. So it would seem the company would have to have much higher savings to justify the hazard of, essentially, breaking the law if they're passing over qualified Americans, even if their wages would be higher-- and the lower wages are a dead giveaway that they're doing just that.
Last edited by Corascant; 08-02-2018 at 05:31 PM..
The advantage of an H1 is that the employee is basically an indentured servant. They can't work for anyone else unless that company has a visa of their own to issue. The H1, and L1 for that matter only allow you to work for the sponsoring company, and if you quit/lose your job you have 30 days to get out.
Thanks for reminding me I'd forgotten about that part, yeah that sounds just like slavery or as you say, indentured servitude. This could maybe partly explain why some employers would hire an H-1B even if the salary savings aren't that much compared to an American. Even if a company is paying the IT guy from Bangalore six figures, he's still basically the company's slave, so the company can feel relatively free to abuse him, work him those 110 hour weeks and just generally treat him terribly which they couldn't do with an American, who could just quit and get a position at another company.
Which means maybe it's important to look at not annual salary, but instead the salary per hour that the worker is working, and I'd guess that with H-1B's couldn't do that since they'd fear deportation. Which means another key piece of the reform, I would think besides demanding higher salaries than an American worker and surveying if Americans are available, is removing the visa from the hands of the employer, and giving it to the worker. This seems to be a source of a lot of the abuse. If the worker could at least complain about abuses or find another employer, or ask for higher wages, then a lot of these abuses-- including in effect, the reduction in hourly wages due to the unpaid overtime the H-1B's are forced into from their indenturement-- would be reduced.
How about the H2-B visas that Trump uses. All of the workers at Mar-a-lago are on those.
H2-B is a totally different visa program. H2-B was created for seasonal workers. At one time, summer resorts only opened between Memorial Day and Labor Day. When that was the case, the workers tended to be high school and college students. Over time, these resorts now open before Memorial Day and close after Labor Day. High school and college students are still in school before and after those holidays. Americans who aren't in school don't want seasonal work. They want year round employment. Thus, many companies have taken to using the H2-B to fill those jobs. When the season is over, the workers return to their own countries.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cchampagne232000
They hire them because they are just as good if not better and at a lower wage. Any wage saving is a saving. They are very intelligent and very dedicated workers.
Total BS^^^^
Sure, there are a few who are "very intelligent" but overall, they aren't the best and the brightest. There is a separate visa program for the best and brightest. H1-B is not for that purpose. Most H1-Bs are mediocre at best and downright incompetent at worst. My husband is now retired but when he worked, he often had to clean up messes made by H1-Bs. There is a lot of fraud in that program. Many submit fake resumes which are accepted with little to no checking. Some have abused the program by lying about what kind of workers they needed. Those who abuse the program have brought in H1-Bs to work at 7-Elevens but lied claiming they needed tech workers.
The H1-B visa program needs to be abolished. Instead those who push for it lie and claim that there are no Americans to take those jobs. Meanwhile, some H1-Bs have managed to get green cards and now are in a position to hire others. What they do is blatantly discriminate against non-Indians. They will call non-Indians about available jobs only to string them along because they had no interest in hiring them. The reason they call non-Indians is to prove that they supposedly made an effort to hire them.
Meanwhile, we have thousands of Americans who are IT workers and can't find jobs. It's absolutely galling to see H1-Bs going to work while Americans go without work.
Abolish that visa program, and the L-1. If we truly reach a point where Americans in IT are fielding several job offers, then revisit the visa programs.
Sure, there are a few who are "very intelligent" but overall, they aren't the best and the brightest. There is a separate visa program for the best and brightest. H1-B is not for that purpose. Most H1-Bs are mediocre at best and downright incompetent at worst. My husband is now retired but when he worked, he often had to clean up messes made by H1-Bs. There is a lot of fraud in that program. Many submit fake resumes which are accepted with little to no checking. Some have abused the program by lying about what kind of workers they needed. Those who abuse the program have brought in H1-Bs to work at 7-Elevens but lied claiming they needed tech workers.
The H1-B visa program needs to be abolished. Instead those who push for it lie and claim that there are no Americans to take those jobs. Meanwhile, some H1-Bs have managed to get green cards and now are in a position to hire others. What they do is blatantly discriminate against non-Indians. They will call non-Indians about available jobs only to string them along because they had no interest in hiring them. The reason they call non-Indians is to prove that they supposedly made an effort to hire them.
Meanwhile, we have thousands of Americans who are IT workers and can't find jobs. It's absolutely galling to see H1-Bs going to work while Americans go without work.
Abolish that visa program, and the L-1. If we truly reach a point where Americans in IT are fielding several job offers, then revisit the visa programs.
This, I completely agree. When I was working in the field, the H-1B's in general were the most incompetent of the bunch and, a lot of our contracts were cleaning up their messes. They couldn't think in a big picture way or had any understanding of the general requirements for the software they were putting together, they were bottom of the barrel, hired on so some moron MBA could claim he was "cutting costs" by not hiring Americans, get his bonus and quit as the company floundered and then real programmers (Americans) got called in to clean up the mess. And of course, it eventually came out that they fudged their resumes and experience all over the place, often with help from the corrupt Indian outsourcers like Wipro or Tata, but HR got bamboozled often because a former H-1B Indian who got a Green Card had recommended hiring them. It's just another form of racism but the hypocrisy of the mainstream media doesn't want to call it that.
And just like you said, Americans born and trained here need those jobs esp. with student loans like this. Even if the H-1B's were better than the dismal level they usually are at, they still have no entitlement to jobs created in America. Indian workers need to get it in their heads that the USA and other countries aren't running international job programs for them. The government and economy of India itself need to provide jobs for their own people, and if overpopulation is making that difficult, then they need to be more effective and aggressive in tackling that.
That's a real shame, US college grads really need those jobs now for their student loans. This is also very politically stupid on Rep. Yoder's part, the only reason people vote Republican anymore is because of the populist side, regulating trade and controlling immigration enough that wages can rise. If House Republicans are shafting Americans in favor of foreign students working for cheap, then the GOP is all but guaranteed to lose the House. What are they even good for then?
Abolish that visa program, and the L-1. If we truly reach a point where Americans in IT are fielding several job offers, then revisit the visa programs.
L-1 is for an internal company transfer. It serves a specific purpose and doesn't remove jobs from the overall American workforce. If a company couldn't move the role, they wouldn't hire it generally.
In full disclosure I'm a former L-1A visa holder, now Green Card, waiting on the perpetual treadmill that is citizenship. Under Cheeto vonTinyhands the wait time for processing has increased by nine months in the past year. So basically I was a few months away from citizenship, waited a year, and now I'm over a year away. Government efficiency
A question I wanted to pose especially to any posters currently working in programming, engineering, Web design or of other STEM fields, spin-off from another thread.. Some background. There's been a lot of media talk lately about how Trump was reforming and cracking down on chronic abuses of the H-1B visa, which is designed to bring in foreign skilled workers, esp. from India, to fill labor shortages only when Americans aren't available (or couldn't reasonably be trained), and crucial, at the same or higher salaries compared to Americans in the same job . Whereas, in reality, as shown in the notorious case of Disney trying to bring in low-salary H-1B's a couple years ago to lay off American workers, the H-1B has often in practice become simply a tool to bring in cheap labor by dangling a carrot to Indian workers willing to work long hours for low wages and no health insurance, in a desperate bid for a green card.
Labor like anything else is subject to supply and demand, and with India's ongoing struggle with development and overpopulation, with over 1.2 billion there and severe unemployment, there's an almost inexhaustible supply of IT workers to replace Americans. And India of course isn't the only country where this applies, so the H-1B abuse has the effect of driving down US wages, forcing Americans out of jobs (especially older workers and kids right of college who need the jobs for student loans), worsening age discrimination and the student loan crisis ($1.5 trillion debt now) and leading to terrible abuses of the foreign workers, who can't switch jobs, bargain for higher wages or request better conditions.
And of course Disney is hardly the only company with such abuses, it's a big issue for much of Silicon Valley and the tech industry, as well as banks and accounting firms and the worst abuses being Indian "body shops" like Wipro and Infosys, that subcontract out for H-1B workers under often squalid conditions, very low pay and no health coverage. And there's even been cottage industry of corrupt law firms and lawyers that sprung up, like the notorious Lawrence Lebowitz of the Cohen and Grigsby firm, that expressly build their business (in this case caught red-handed) on helping firms to break the law on the H-1B visa by putting out fake job ads exaggerating work and experience requirements and then claim there are no Americans available:
So whatever side of political aisle you're on, I think it's fair to say the H-1B visa desperately needs reform, same with the L-1 visa which is also abused for cheap labor, or the programs that allow foreign college grads to stay in the US for a period, and even the EB-5 investor visa, and programs providing cheap labor to colleges, it's basically a ton of abuse that's terrible for almost everyone, including Americans and the abused foreign workers too, except for the CEO's who cash in on their corruption.
Here's what I'm wondering about-- what is Trump actually doing, if anything, to overhaul or even shut down (ex. to impose a suspension on, like what he did with the travel ban) the H-1B, L-1 and other abused visa programs? I've been hearing conflicting things on the media and from my own family, many whom work in STEM. I used to myself, though I'm semi-retired now, I saw a lot of these abuses up close. The H-1B workers from India and the Philippines esp. were treated like dirt by the body shops and their employers, working more than 100 hours a week, no health coverage, 7 roommates crammed into a filthy apartment to try to save money, used up and discarded and replaced with other imported cheap labor, all while Americans are laid off, wages drop, forced to work as contractors so no health insurance and kids out of college can't get the key experience they need on the career ladder or pay off student loans.
Whichever political party and candidates is smart enough to do real H-1B visa reform has an automatic election winner, especially for Independents like most of my family that actually decide the elections. I can tell you that at a family BBQ last weekend where the issue came up, nobody cares about most issues the media talks about, the Russia investigation or all that, the one thing everybody cares about is jobs and healthcare, that's what we'll vote on in November. If the GOP is smart, they'll see the H-1B is seen by Americans across parties as being grossly unjust and corrupt, and cancel or at least heavily reduce it. Dems, if they're smart, will follow Bernie Sanders and make it an issue of protecting worker conditions, jobs and salaries. Trump doesn't seem to be doing well on healthcare and not offered much to improve or reduce costs though at least he's gone quiet on it. On jobs though, whether you love him or hate him on any other things, President Trump at least he does seem to "get it" more than the Presidents before him in either party, at least understanding that too high immigration saturates labor supply so wages lower. But although Trump's talked a lot about restricting or even suspending the H-1B and L-1 visas like with that travel ban, I can't tell if he's actually done anything. One member of my family at the BBQ, a conservative who voted straight ticket Republican in 2016, expressed a lot of irritating saying Trump hasn't done much of anything to shut down the H-1B and is planning to stay home in November. Whereas, a cousin who's Independent thought Trump was doing a whole lot to reduce the H-1B and was going to vote for a candidate Trump endorsed My nephew is just about to graduate with a Bachelor's in computer programming and is just worried about jobs availability and low wages.
Since I'm kind of retired now, hear so many different things, wondering for any of you out there in STEM, has Donald Trump actually been doing things to reform, or even suspend or shut down the H-1B and L-1 visa programs? Or do you think it's all just talk and little action?
He has not passed any laws but infused new vigor in how applications are scrutinized and approved. Every application is thoroughly checked and the days of filing extension = automatic approval are long gone.
I have been through this and there is considerable action going on.
1) The number of RFE( Request for evidence) and subsequently denials have gone up.
2) Visa rejections have increased and are thrown into an administrative processing pool where it can take longer to get an update.
3) USCIS is mulling a law where an application can be rejected right away without an RFE.
4) Plans for canceling work authorization of spouses of people who are in green card queue.
5) Applications for "Prospective" employment are denied. Unless you have a solid contract , you are in trouble. This is where many body shops and H1B abusers freak out.
6) These rules have helped companies hire many Americans and also increased the prevailing H1B wages also.
7) Many people have left the country as a result.
As long as you have good paperwork and some luck, there is still fair adjudication.
L-1 is for an internal company transfer. It serves a specific purpose and doesn't remove jobs from the overall American workforce. If a company couldn't move the role, they wouldn't hire it generally.
In full disclosure I'm a former L-1A visa holder, now Green Card, waiting on the perpetual treadmill that is citizenship. Under Cheeto vonTinyhands the wait time for processing has increased by nine months in the past year. So basically I was a few months away from citizenship, waited a year, and now I'm over a year away. Government efficiency
Are you sure that you want to be a US citizen considering that you hate the president so much that you made up an immature name for him?
You do realize that a backlog exists for a variety of reasons. On an annual basis, we allow in 1 million legal immigrants, many who apply for citizenship. If the processing time has increased, it's all for the better in one way---more thorough screening.
He has not passed any laws but infused new vigor in how applications are scrutinized and approved. Every application is thoroughly checked and the days of filing extension = automatic approval are long gone.
I have been through this and there is considerable action going on.
1) The number of RFE( Request for evidence) and subsequently denials have gone up.
2) Visa rejections have increased and are thrown into an administrative processing pool where it can take longer to get an update.
3) USCIS is mulling a law where an application can be rejected right away without an RFE.
4) Plans for canceling work authorization of spouses of people who are in green card queue.
5) Applications for "Prospective" employment are denied. Unless you have a solid contract , you are in trouble. This is where many body shops and H1B abusers freak out.
6) These rules have helped companies hire many Americans and also increased the prevailing H1B wages also.
7) Many people have left the country as a result.
As long as you have good paperwork and some luck, there is still fair adjudication.
Thanks for the update.
As for #4 --- that happened due to Obama issuing an executive order. For him to do that when there are thousands of unemployed American citizens who work in STEM/It was despicable.
Someone once posted on CD (don't remember the exact thread) that many of those spouses (H-4 visa holders) have taken coding classes. In areas where there are high concentrations of Indians, some of them are conducting classes in their basements. After they complete these questionable classes, other Indians hire them.
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