Churches cost this country 71-83 billion a year (first amendment, constitution, work)
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Your example is exactly the type of organization that I would argue deserves an offset, and continue to be exempt. I concur, just because I don't directly benefit, doesn't mean the community or society doesn't. There are some churches who make significant contributions to the community beyond the "spiritual" kind, and I, as an atheist, give kudos to them.
As mentioned, we have one of those in our community. I talked to the pastor of that one yesterday. We happen to be a bit of a tourist destination, and have a decommissioned Anglican church in town that was built over 100 years ago. She volunteers with our historical society, and yesterday she guided tourists through that church, doing so dressed up in 1890's style period pastor clothes. The tourists loved it!
That church puts on a harvest supper for the whole village at a cost recovery price of only $10.00. The other church, the evangelical one, is never seen at community events.
One gives back, and gives back in spades, even though it is the smaller denomination, the other one hides in their own realm.
Wouldn't it be nice if there were a way to recognize or measure such things? From a practical matter, determining tax exemption status based on what benefit a non-profit provides to society is extremely problematical if not impossible. Wouldn't it be nice if we could though? Tax deductions, assistance, exemptions only for worthy ethical companies, people, organizations that provide sufficient benefit to society. The opposite for cheats, criminals and the corrupt...
"As long as"......You are OK as long as they fit your belief.
Okay. Let's do this your way...
Yes you are and again you are wrong, wrong, wrong. Not according to what "fits my belief" but the rule of law, secular law as dictated by our constitution, whether I like the law or not.
^^ Is this an example of the high IQ people that you are supposedly going to preference, Freak80?
Inquisitions and Saudi Arabia??
You have no idea what you are talking about, historically nor otherwise.
Religion is an essential component of all civil life, as evidenced by the increasing lack of civility and community in the regions where it lacks.
Christianity has always been integral to the most civilized periods and regions of this nation, and it still is. To think otherwise is to either be a degenerate or to simply not know this country, first hand. The only exceptions are where exceptionally civilized tribes live (who are arguably inherently good), which isn't in many places.
I read your comments as all too often lacking civility*, however I agree with much in the way of your observations and arguments. True, for example, that Christianity has always been around and a profound influence on our civilization and our nation, for better and/or worse. However, I think for many today, especially in America, Christianity and religion in general is becoming less integral. That seems to be the trend anyway...
*Wish I could claim innocence along those lines, but all too often I think I lose patience with some people who comment in this forum and my ability to remain as civil as I would like begins to wane.
No way I'm going to read all the previous posts, but in case it hasn't been brought up, just what is there to tax? the Real estate? The Feds don't have a property tax, and most towns and cities like having churches around, and if the property the church owns isn't being used, then they pay taxes on it. All paid church employees pay payroll taxes like everybody else. All Pastors, ministers, and the like pay payroll and income taxes on their incomes.
So, there is not much to tax that isn't already taxed, despite all the whining by assorted angry deviants and the like. You're just being lied to about what is 'tax exempt' and what isn't., is all.
There might be state/local property tax imposed on church real estate if it were not unconstitutional. Put another way, any taxes so imposed at a state or local level would surely meet with legal/constitutional challenge, and lose.
You can deny it all you want to as you always have, but my experience is but that of my own, in which I came to an understanding that which was told to me, was true. However, I can not speak for any other faithful denominations as to what they may or may not hold true to themselves, because I am not them.
I can not cast judgment on something or someone I do not know as I am powerless to do so. Others take that power unto themselves and cast judgment onto people and they believe they are within their right to do so.
Again you are explaining what doesn't need any explanation. Of course you can believe whatever you want to believe, and I'm not going to try to address that again except perhaps to ask you read my comment(s) again to better understand that simple point. We ALL know we are ALL free to believe and do as we please. Of course. Within the confines of the law, also of course.
All that said and/or completely understood. However, when we share that which we claim "cannot be denied," I think we all CAN judge whether that's true or not, the experience as claimed or not. We certainly can judge and do, or not so inclined, there's that option too. Right?
No different than if you were to explain you are a racist, for whatever your reasons. Racists also like to argue they are racist for reasons "that can't be denied." I/we may not understand someone else's personal experience, and of course none of us can really speak for someone else, but we can't judge? Should not judge? Of course we can!
I believe we all judge what is right vs wrong, for ourselves and with respect to the thinking and actions of others, what is true and what is not.
At the same time, of course there are those who have no interest or inclination to judge beyond what they wish to believe. End of story. Others are more inclined to determine what they believe based on a different set of criteria altogether and judge accordingly. "Comparing notes" on what is fact vs fiction, right vs wrong, truth vs lies, what "can't be denied" or what can be denied. And very importantly, why.
Clearly there are people with all variety of reason, rationale and conclusion when it comes to these sorts of subjects. Again no need to go on any more about any of that. Exchange of opinion, generally speaking, is based on how we judge all variety of reason, rationale and conclusion. If not, you are simply stating your beliefs as you might write them on a bathroom wall, without any interest what anyone else thinks or why. Of course there are plenty of those kinds of people too. We all know this all too well...
If the Catholic Church has and pays for lobbyists, they should also be taxed!
Catholic Church spent $2M on major N.Y. lobbying firms to block child-sex law reform
Guess what your donations to church on Sundays supported?
Quote:
The Catholic Conference, headed by Timothy Cardinal Dolan, has used Wilson Elser Moskowitz Edelman & Dicker, Patricia Lynch & Associates, Hank Sheinkopf, and Mark Behan Communications to lobby against the Child Victims Act as well as for or against other measures.
Quote:
"They are willing to spend limitless money in order to basically keep bad guys from being accountable for their actions," said Melanie Blow, chief operations officer of the Stop Abuse Campaign. "I think they're doing it because they don't want to have to pay out settlements."
You are right, Thomas Jefferson did question:
"To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence; & believing he never claimed any other ..." Thomas Jefferson
So where does that leave us? With our belief in freedoms.
It is through the letter written by Thomas Jefferson that we have the separation of church and state. As it is not written in the u.s. Constitution, but established through the Supreme Courts decision, who used the letter in order to come to their conclusions.
Uhh...
It is most certainly written in the U.S. Constitution AKA the 1st Amendment.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
Yes, with our belief in freedoms, again no question, but again there is what Thomas Jefferson said about the use of reason, to help us judge, more to my point. I suspect there is no point in repeating myself about that again, because I sense a lack of inclination or interest in that respect far as you are concerned.
Too true. Churches, just like the Girl Scouts and other non-profits, do not pay sales tax, but that isn't federal either. As a member of the so-called "Christian left", I would have no problem with churches being assessed a payment of some sort in lieu of taxes for police and fire protection.
First I've ever heard of the "Christian left." Probably because most who lean left are not inclined toward favoring any one religion over another or even religion in general out of respect for people of different faith, different beliefs. Oxymoron of sorts if you ask me...
From your article, it isn't just the Catholic Church...
"The Catholic Church, some Orthodox Jewish groups, and other private entities oppose legislation by Assemblywoman Margaret Markey (D-Queens) and Sen. Brad Hoylman (D-Manhattan) that would eliminate the time limit that prohibits adults who were victimized as children from bringing civil cases after their 23rd birthdays."
And what might "Christian left" folks make of what appear to be Democrats behind this legislation?
There might be state/local property tax imposed on church real estate if it were not unconstitutional. Put another way, any taxes so imposed at a state or local level would surely meet with legal/constitutional challenge, and lose.
Don't assume that.
The City of Nashville v. State Board of Equalization clearly advises that those parts of church property not directly used for religious services are taxable, and, more importantly, that was never appealed to SCOTUS. You need to read the judgement that is clear the exemption is due to the State constitution, and that exemption can be withdrawn.
So, the property tax exemptions that exist are State based, and has nothing to do with the First Amendment. If it did, the cases mentioned above would have been appealed, and laws like Washington State would have been challenged decades ago.
There is a legitimate, and Constitutional argument that can be made for property taxes to be considered on all religious properties.
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