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Well, you sound like you might possibly be the type of person that can appreciate the Theory of Evolution, so we can use evolution to address this. Men are the hunters. They hunt the game, they are the warriors, they protect the family - wife and kids. Women naturally look for signs of a good provider whether they realize that fact or not.
Physically, have you ever noticed that among all the mammals (and we would be including primates and humans as mammals here) only the female human has enlarged breasts all the time. Other female mammals/primates grow enlarged breasts during pregnancy, and those protruding breasts retreat once weaning of offspring is accomplished. This is the point where the male of the species wanders off if it is not a species known for mating for life. The offspring is now foraging for itself and he is no longer needed to hunt for and protect the offspring as they will be hunting and foraging and protecting themselves.
The human mammal grows protruding breasts as a response to puberty and maintains them throughout their life. This is so the protective hunter male does not ever wander off. You may resent your traditional role all you like, it doesn't mean that a female of the species will be looking at you as suitable mating material. This does not mean that you cannot find a woman that will be willing to take on more of the evolutional male responsibilities, while you assume more of a female role in a relationship.
You are right that I appreciate intelligent discussion and discussing concepts and theories. You are not right that I would be interested in a more female role in a relationship. Over the course of my life, I have lost a lot of money on fronting the costs of early stage dates and get flaked on before sex happens. In a situation like that, a lot of times it feels like flushing hard earned money down the toilet. My concern in this topic has always been not flushing money down the toilet, partially due to an outdated premise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth
I thought the custom of the guy paying for the first date had been done away with. A lot of women pay their own way, or offer to, these days, but that backfires on some of them. How many times does a guy have to pay for a relatively costly date, and be flaked on afterwards, before he figures out that he either shouldn't be paying for dates, or he should plan first dates that are free or low-budget?
It sounds like you're hanging out with a bunch of suckers, RJ. They don't sound very bright. Or maybe you're in a super-traditional part of the country? Mid-west? South?
I'm in Dallas, Texas. Dallas is middle of the road in terms of ideology. There's a male surplus here, as there are in most U.S. metros. Women don't have to pay for early stage dates here because males are willing to do so. My sense is that men are still picking up most early stage costs, regardless of geography within the United States, due to the single male surplus.
Over the course of my dating life, I have learned to opt towards inexpensive dates. I do not do dinner dates in restaurants before I have sex with a woman. It's either drinks or an activity that I can find that we both mutually like. However, even with inexpensive dates, if a person dates in enough volume, this person will still lose a substantial amount of money.
I thought the custom of the guy paying for the first date had been done away with. A lot of women pay their own way, or offer to, these days, but that backfires on some of them. How many times does a guy have to pay for a relatively costly date, and be flaked on afterwards, before he figures out that he either shouldn't be paying for dates, or he should plan first dates that are free or low-budget?
It sounds like you're hanging out with a bunch of suckers, RJ. They don't sound very bright. Or maybe you're in a super-traditional part of the country? Mid-west? South?
I doubt it's changed much when there is any kind of gap in socioeconomic status. In my life circumstances, it's been unusual for women to out-earn me so I tend to pick up the check as a matter of course. Strangely, my girlfriend and I make similar money (when I manage to be employed) and I'm still picking up the check but we're old people and she's big on all that symbolic stuff like car doors and walking on the street side. My friend Patty made $25 million in a dot.com years ago and I'm sure has multiplied that considerably over the years. When we're catching up at a restaurant, I have T-Rex arms when the check shows up.
I suspect the guys doing the complaining are mostly living paycheck to paycheck. Shelling out for dates and never having it progress is a big deal when your credit cards are maxed, you have a big car payment, and you're trying to figure out how to cover school loans, rent, and utility bills.
You are right that I appreciate intelligent discussion and discussing concepts and theories. You are not right that I would be interested in a more female role in a relationship. Over the course of my life, I have lost a lot of money on fronting the costs of early stage dates and get flaked on before sex happens. In a situation like that, a lot of times it feels like flushing hard earned money down the toilet. My concern in this topic has always been not flushing money down the toilet, partially due to an outdated premise.
I'm in Dallas, Texas. Dallas is middle of the road in terms of ideology. There's a male surplus here, as there are in most U.S. metros. Women don't have to pay for early stage dates here because males are willing to do so.
Over the course of my dating life, I have learned to opt towards inexpensive dates. I do not do dinner dates in restaurants before I have sex with a woman. It's either drinks or an activity that I can find that we both mutually like. However, even with inexpensive dates, if a person dates in enough volume, this person will still lose a substantial amount of money.
I can appreciate that you may not want to feel taken advantage of, but I would ask how this strategy is working for you and what is your ultimate goal?
From my perspective as a female, you are only looking for a reasonably priced prostitute. Someone you think will provide good sexual content to your life in exchange for a meal, provided you want to enjoy the experience again once you have managed to have sex for a couple drinks alone. It brings it all down to sex for money, whether the meal costs you $10, $50 or even $100 for just her portion. Since this is merely a business transaction at this point, there is no need to consider what you are spending to eat, just what you are spending on her in exchange for sex with you.
That's rather off-putting. Anyone that would consider being with you once they realize you are approaching mating from this dollar-value-for-sex perspective, would probably prefer the cash, tbh; and not really be interested in pretending they are on a date. You will obviously never date with the goal to marry a virgin unless you think you can secure the love of a virgin with no monetary investment at all.
I can appreciate that you may not want to feel taken advantage of, but I would ask how this strategy is working for you and what is your ultimate goal?
I definitely feel like I've been taken advantage of over the course of my life. Certainly, there were dates where I wanted out because the woman was not good at all, but a lot of times I wanted more and the woman didn't, and I felt like the particular interaction left me with a sour taste in my mouth. That's where feminism comes into this discussion. Women are still enjoying the privilege of getting their dates paid for without the downsides of equality. There have been times in my life where I have paid for a date for a woman earning more money than I was earning at that time. How does that represent fairness and equality to me? I understand that I have to do it to be competitive in an environment where there is a single male surplus.
In my dating endeavors, over time, I have pursued extended relationships. Because I absorb a ton of costs on the front end of dating relationships, the only way in which I can justify the absorption of early stage costs is through longer term relationships. A relationship does not have to be eternal, but any sort of interaction that results in an extended relationship of 1-2 years, even if it does not work out forever, I can at least walk away from that interaction feeling that there was benefit for me, and probably for both parties.
I definitely feel like I've been taken advantage of over the course of my life. Certainly, there were dates where I wanted out because the woman was not good at all, but a lot of times I wanted more and the woman didn't, and I felt like the particular interaction left me with a sour taste in my mouth. That's where feminism comes into this discussion. Women are still enjoying the privilege of getting their dates paid for without the downsides of equality. There have been times in my life where I have paid for a date for a woman earning more money than I was earning at that time. How does that represent fairness and equality to me? I understand that I have to do it to be competitive in an environment where there is a single male surplus.
In my dating endeavors, over time, I have pursued extended relationships. Because I absorb a ton of costs on the front end of dating relationships, the only way in which I can justify the absorption of early stage costs is through longer term relationships. A relationship does not have to be eternal, but any sort of interaction that results in an extended relationship of 1-2 years, even if it does not work out forever, I can at least walk away from that interaction feeling that there was benefit for me, and probably for both parties.
Thanks for the reply. Equality cannot be dictated when it comes to private...anything. Only the government can enforce equality in things like education, housing, labor laws, and wages. They cant enforce equality in your bedroom, nor do I think anyone really wants them to.
You want what you want, and have laid out clear guidelines for how you will approach it. It's great that it works for you.
Dating is really not any different for women. Lots of women have blown money on men buying them gifts and stuff just to keep their attention. If Im an average woman looking to spend time with an exceptional guy, I know Im not going to get anywhere on my natural assets and will have to bring something more to the table in order to compete with exceptional women to get his attention. Sure, down the road he may love my mind, sense of humor etc, but that's not what he sees coming straight out of the gate. There are many women out there who have felt the 'hit it & quit it' burn. Or, simply played and taken advantage of. Interestingly enough, a woman is not what most folks envision when the term "player" enters a conversation.
The only difference is really when it comes down to sex drive, and there is nothing fair or unfair about that. It simply is what it is. Make no mistake in what I am about to say, because women do have a sex drive, but it is no where near as persistent and physically strong as a mans, and they can take their time and be more selective. They should be selective. Evolution and societal norms dictate that they be selective.
I doubt it's changed much when there is any kind of gap in socioeconomic status. In my life circumstances, it's been unusual for women to out-earn me so I tend to pick up the check as a matter of course. Strangely, my girlfriend and I make similar money (when I manage to be employed) and I'm still picking up the check but we're old people and she's big on all that symbolic stuff like car doors and walking on the street side. My friend Patty made $25 million in a dot.com years ago and I'm sure has multiplied that considerably over the years. When we're catching up at a restaurant, I have T-Rex arms when the check shows up.
I suspect the guys doing the complaining are mostly living paycheck to paycheck. Shelling out for dates and never having it progress is a big deal when your credit cards are maxed, you have a big car payment, and you're trying to figure out how to cover school loans, rent, and utility bills.
Very good point! Maybe that’s why the guy I met at the mall insisted on long John silvers, when I wanted the Hard Rock Cafe. Then he got mad and dug his heels in, by leading me there. I should have left, I thought he was an ass actually, I didn’t realize being on a budget produces the same domineering tunnel vision.
I didn’t naturally holler out after him- “hey I can pay if that’s the issue?” Just as I would have if it was any friend. I’m not a gold digger, it didn’t cross my mind that that was too much money for a “first date” it was dinner time for chrissakes and why can’t I eat food I’ll like?!
Yet here are men like RJ attaching dollar signs to every move, as in sex for money, not knowing IN SOME CASES the woman isn’t aware of all of that. She has money, and wasn’t looking for support, just a guy with an enjoyable personality. Well: Fail.
Thanks for the reply. Equality cannot be dictated when it comes to private...anything. Only the government can enforce equality in things like education, housing, labor laws, and wages. They cant enforce equality in your bedroom, nor do I think anyone really wants them to.
You want what you want, and have laid out clear guidelines for how you will approach it. It's great that it works for you.
Exactly. If you don't want to pay for dates, don't pay for dates. There's no law that says you have to. If that is what a woman expects from you, then you're not on the same page and you shouldn't be dating.
lol. You've been having trouble sticking with the point of the my original question to you, from the start. Oh well. At least we know you're a "feminist" guy. That's the main thing.
What obscures the situation is that women are more likely to pay for dates they initiate. The one who asks for the date is the one who pays.
But women rarely ask for the date. They still most often wait for the man to ask them, so it's still the men who mostly pay.
Hmph...if guys choose NOT to wait then that is THEIR decision and apparently to pay. But it's such a pittance at those coffee things they call dates so practically a non-issue anyway. There are far bigger issues at hand.
I thought the custom of the guy paying for the first date had been done away with. A lot of women pay their own way, or offer to, these days, but that backfires on some of them. How many times does a guy have to pay for a relatively costly date, and be flaked on afterwards, before he figures out that he either shouldn't be paying for dates, or he should plan first dates that are free or low-budget?
It sounds like you're hanging out with a bunch of suckers, RJ. They don't sound very bright. Or maybe you're in a super-traditional part of the country? Mid-west? South?
The really ironic thing, is that a feminist is the person who would pay her own meal. It is the old fashion girl who does not identify as a feminist woman that expects her way paid. Many men claim to want an old-fashioned girl, a woman like women used to be back in the day, but then they expect a woman to pay on the date, which would repel that type of woman. You have to make up your mind what you want, if you want an old fashioned woman then you have to court her, if you want to date a strong bf independent woman who will pay for the date, you can’t say you won’t date women who identify as feminists.
I want to add, ghosting is not right for anyone but it happens to both men and women. It is simply that the person was too cowardly to tell you at the end of the date that they didn’t want a second date. The best way to avoid this for that poster, is to not do a full-blown dinner on a first date do something simple that doesn’t cost much money and see if you get along. If there’s a second date then you can go to dinner. Very simple to avoid laying out lots of money when the vast majority of first dates end up as one and done.
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That's the main thing.
