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Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanterWhat is the predicate crime? What crime are they covering up?
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Originally Posted by loves2read
Watch MSNBC--lot of good info there
I hope your answer was sarcasm because MSNBC is about the lowest information network imaginable.
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Originally Posted by jacqueg
OK. DID Dershowitz address what he thinks these people are lying about?
Whether you take it seriously or not, the fact is that lying to a federal investigator is a crime. Now Dershowitz is correct that these indictments are for lying to an investigator. But neither you nor I know why these lies are being told, and I really want to know. Do you? (I of course have ideas and opinions about these liars - when don’t I have ideas and opinions? - but I don’t know.)
There was no crime committed that was lied about. Mr. Mueller's charge was to investigate collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia to subvert the 2016 presidential election. The crimes that Mr. Stone is charged with all occurred AFTER Nov. 2016 so they could not be related to collusion with Russia. The "crime" could be like this; Q: when did you last speak to Mr. Smith? A: February 10th.
If the last time you actually spoke to him was February 3, but you forgot the date; is that a crime or bad memory? If a prosecutor wants to call it a lie, he can charge it that way, but in any case, whichever day you spoke to Mr. Smith is IRRELEVANT because it isn't a crime. That is Mr. Dershowitz's point.
Why was Hillary Clinton not charged with lying to the FBI? She told the FBI she didn't send any classified information on her private email server, but she clearly did. The FBI even said so. Not only did she LIE to the FBI, the action she took (sending classified information on a non-secure server) was itself a federal crime. Why wasn't she prosecuted?
Why weren't any Hillary Clinton associates charged with lying to investigators? Oh that's right, they were all granted immunity before speaking to investigators and BEFORE investigators knew what they were going to say. You NEVER grant immunity before you know what they have to offer, you grant immunity when you know they are guilty of a crime and you need them to not worry about the 5th Amendment in speaking to you.
Why wasn't Eric Holder prosecuted for lying to Congress? He lied about when he learned about Fast & Furious. Instead of being prosecuted, he was allowed to "correct" his testimony to match the truth.
Andrew McCabe was fired from the FBI for lying to the FBI. Where is his indictment?
The SCO (Mueller investigation) reset the iPhones of Strzok and Page to factory settings, which wipes out all the data on them. Had you or I done that we would be charged with obstruction of justice and destroying evidence.
The FBI lied to a federal FISA judge when they affirmed to him, that they were “unaware of any derogatory information” about Steele or that Steele was “never advised as to the motivation behind the research”. We now know that Deputy Assistant AG Bruce Ohr advised FBI Deputy Director Andy McCabe and FBI lawyer Lisa Page of issues with the Steele Dossier long before they sought the warrant. He also informed Deputy Assistant AG Bruce Swartz, DOJ lawyer Zainab Ahmad and DOJ fraud unit head Andrew Weissman of the same issues. Ahmad and Weissman now work for the SCO of Robert Mueller. Where are the indictments for this nest of vipers?
I could go on with many, many more examples of people lying to Congress (looking at YOU John Brennan) and federal law enforcement about consequential matters and crimes with not only no prosecution, but not even an investigation. Justice is supposed to be blind, not stupid.
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Originally Posted by Goodnight
I do think that amount of agents is overdoing it a bit but we really don’t have all the details yet.
A bit? Under what circumstance can you think it appropriate for 27 heavily armed federal agents in body armor roll into a neighborhood at 5:30AM to arrest a 66 year old, who doesn't own a gun and is charged with non-violent crimes?
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Originally Posted by Goodnight
The warrant needed approval by a judge and you can bet there is much more to this action.
Again, what do you think that can POSSIBLY come out to justify the manner of arrest?
They do seem to be arresting a lot of Trump's people.
A lot of Nixon's people, a lot of Reagan's people, and a lot of George W. Bush Jr.'s people have been found guilty as well.
A couple of Clinton's people, and one of Obama's.
I think only one for George H. W. Bush Sr. (the Republican exception, likely from stacking the investigators and courts on part of the previous Republican).
Lying to Congress is a serious crime. But helping a foe as it endeavors to undermine an American election is treacherous wrongdoing. Perhaps it was not illegal for Stone to hype the disinformation of Guccifer 2.0 to distract from the truth in order to protect Trump. It was, though, certainly an act of betrayal—and an act of villainy far greater than anything alleged in the indictment
I can'''t disagree with Corn but most people who choose to minimize Stone or anyone's actions that have been called out and indicted by Muller's investigation and criticized in the media prefer to tout the 'strong man" action of Trump in his pseudo attempts at foreign policy by "negotiating" with NK or the knee-jerk reaction to move troups out of Syria w/o any real game plan for the difficulties short and long term that would case...
They don't want to admit that gaming the system like the Russians did to help Trump (and that did happen) was a serious threat to American democratic process
Because whether it was the REASON Trump won or not is not the only reason to despise it
The US has done the same thing in elections and governments of other countries-under different presidents and political parties since we became a nation--so we have a history littered with interference in elections
Trump is doing regime change in Venezuela right now in more overt form..
Roger Stone and Manafort were involved in helping some of those interventions take place in foreign countries and who knows what dirty tricks they might have played to influence American elections
One reason they likely had no compunction about doing it IN America to other Americans in 2016
They consider average people rubes--unsophisticated--dupes of those who have the power, will, and money to enforce THEIR desires/agendas on the masses..
The average voter is just a "tool" to Stone and Trump and others--
And I admit many politicians of any party could have that same mindset when you consider what it takes to fund a political campaign for a major office--or proportionately even a minor one...
Not all politicians feel that way but that attitude seems endemic among political campaign organizers and media representatives whose job is to get someone elected...
I hope your answer was sarcasm because MSNBC is about the lowest information network imaginable.
There was no crime committed that was lied about. Mr. Mueller's charge was to investigate collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia to subvert the 2016 presidential election. The crimes that Mr. Stone is charged with all occurred AFTER Nov. 2016 so they could not be related to collusion with Russia. The "crime" could be like this; Q: when did you last speak to Mr. Smith? A: February 10th.
If the last time you actually spoke to him was February 3, but you forgot the date; is that a crime or bad memory? If a prosecutor wants to call it a lie, he can charge it that way, but in any case, whichever day you spoke to Mr. Smith is IRRELEVANT because it isn't a crime. That is Mr. Dershowitz's point.
Why was Hillary Clinton not charged with lying to the FBI? She told the FBI she didn't send any classified information on her private email server, but she clearly did. The FBI even said so. Not only did she LIE to the FBI, the action she took (sending classified information on a non-secure server) was itself a federal crime. Why wasn't she prosecuted?
Why weren't any Hillary Clinton associates charged with lying to investigators? Oh that's right, they were all granted immunity before speaking to investigators and BEFORE investigators knew what they were going to say. You NEVER grant immunity before you know what they have to offer, you grant immunity when you know they are guilty of a crime and you need them to not worry about the 5th Amendment in speaking to you.
Why wasn't Eric Holder prosecuted for lying to Congress? He lied about when he learned about Fast & Furious. Instead of being prosecuted, he was allowed to "correct" his testimony to match the truth.
Andrew McCabe was fired from the FBI for lying to the FBI. Where is his indictment?
The SCO (Mueller investigation) reset the iPhones of Strzok and Page to factory settings, which wipes out all the data on them. Had you or I done that we would be charged with obstruction of justice and destroying evidence.
The FBI lied to a federal FISA judge when they affirmed to him, that they were “unaware of any derogatory information†about Steele or that Steele was “never advised as to the motivation behind the researchâ€. We now know that Deputy Assistant AG Bruce Ohr advised FBI Deputy Director Andy McCabe and FBI lawyer Lisa Page of issues with the Steele Dossier long before they sought the warrant. He also informed Deputy Assistant AG Bruce Swartz, DOJ lawyer Zainab Ahmad and DOJ fraud unit head Andrew Weissman of the same issues. Ahmad and Weissman now work for the SCO of Robert Mueller. Where are the indictments for this nest of vipers?
I could go on with many, many more examples of people lying to Congress (looking at YOU John Brennan) and federal law enforcement about consequential matters and crimes with not only no prosecution, but not even an investigation. Justice is supposed to be blind, not stupid.
A bit? Under what circumstance can you think it appropriate for 27 heavily armed federal agents in body armor roll into a neighborhood at 5:30AM to arrest a 66 year old, who doesn't own a gun and is charged with non-violent crimes? Again, what do you think that can POSSIBLY come out to justify the manner of arrest?
Stone was not hurt--and he said he was treated professionally and with courtesy
He enjoys mugging for the cameras
The very fact of HOW he was arrested he is trying to use to his advantage--and I guess his supporters are using it in just that way...
Stone IMO should be considered a flight risk in that he has friends with private planes and airstrips
He has money
There is strong possibility there was information he would have destroyed if he had gotten advance warning about coming in for arraignment
Why take that chance if you are the DoJ
Stone is not innocent about what he was facing
If YOU aren't influenced by the "drama" of how he was arrested, do you think a jury that reads the papers, watches MSM, watching reality tv cop shows and other performance art doesn't understand what a "perp" walk is supposed to achieve???
Stone was not hurt--and he said he was treated professionally and with courtesy. He enjoys mugging for the cameras. The very fact of HOW he was arrested he is trying to use to his advantage--and I guess his supporters are using it in just that way... Stone IMO should be considered a flight risk in that he has friends with private planes and airstrips. He has money. There is strong possibility there was information he would have destroyed if he had gotten advance warning about coming in for arraignment. Why take that chance if you are the DoJ. Stone is not innocent about what he was facing.
If YOU aren't influenced by the "drama" of how he was arrested, do you think a jury that reads the papers, watches MSM, watching reality tv cop shows and other performance art doesn't understand what a "perp" walk is supposed to achieve???
Sorry, but the whole reply is pretty ridiculous. The DOJ already has the evidence they think they need. That is why he was arrested. He's been saying for months he expected to be arrested; he could have fled at any time, but didn't. He doesn't even have a valid passport. Where was he going to flee to? If you want the element of surprised, two FBI agents in suits ringing the doorbell at 5:30AM would have been sufficient. An unnecessary show of force endangers a lot of people, including the agents.
Charges: Obstruction, making false statements, witness tampering
Donald Trump and his cronies are lairs. Donald Trump's cronies were not working independently, they were reporting to someone and that someone was Donald Trump!
Isn't it wonderful to see to see the Feds being used as a political weapon and busting down doors to arrest the lefts political enemies. An investigation that was started on the Steele dossier paid for by the Clinton campaign. Finally we have arrived and are equal to 3rd world justice and can join in celebration with any communist country that seeks to jail their political opposition.
No collusion or coordination with Russia alleged to have been committed by Stone in the indictments. More process crimes produced by the investigation itself.
Mueller has turned the arrest into a political event. CNN invited to cover the braking and entering. The network that has been running a smear campaign for three years against Trump. That will likely get as much coverage as the arrest.
Nice to see them doing their job and pursuing Russoan interference in US election.
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