Men Going Their Own Way (MGTOW) - yay, or nay? (lawyer, racist)
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None of this would be happening if LBJ and others expanded the welfare state. Welfare has replaced the husband in anything below the upper middle class. Before welfare, all men found wives and children were raised by two loving parents. Because of welfare many men are unwanted and unneeded. Our whole society will fall apart because of this...not to mention our debt will continue to spiral out of control. May God damned everyone who uses government transfer payments to raise their children and may God especially damn LBJ and all politicians who invented these evil programs.
MGTOW has their valid points. They're basically Third Wave Feminism for men -- ie "A man needs a woman like a fish needs a bicycle." Men are getting screwed pretty much across the board and we're pretty massively unappreciated. Social Justice activists lay all the problems in the world at the feet of straight white men above all, and all men in general at the same time. So MGTOW's solution is to say, "F-ck it!" And I can't really blame them.
Truth: Both men and women are better off sticking with each other. We're wired for it. If you want to be happy, find a member of the opposite sex and get together. The boring ol' getting married, having children, accepting responsibility, etc. -- that's what makes people happiest in general.
But if women can say, "F-ck it! I don't need no man!" then men can play the same game. Hence, MGTOW.
None of this would be happening if LBJ and others expanded the welfare state. Welfare has replaced the husband in anything below the upper middle class. Before welfare, all men found wives and children were raised by two loving parents. Because of welfare many men are unwanted and unneeded. Our whole society will fall apart because of this...not to mention our debt will continue to spiral out of control. May God damned everyone who uses government transfer payments to raise their children and may God especially damn LBJ and all politicians who invented these evil programs.
The easiest way to control someone is to make them dependent on the system. Much the same way the youth of today will be easily controlled because of their record student loan totals. Debt is an easy mechanism of control because most will vote for who promises the most freebies and bailouts.
Before welfare, all men found wives and children were raised by two loving parents.
Interesting - just read a book by a TN woman in the 1920's and 30's married 14 times. Very unhappy. Drunk and gun toting hubbies who would threaten and even shoot at their own families. Didn't seem "loving" to me.
From extended family I know that many had to put their kids in orphanages...even when they had two parents. This was "modern day" in that it was in the 30's or so.
So many people died for strange reasons that it was quite typical for women and/or men to marry a number of times. This is all backed up by family trees, etc.
Many people had nervous breakdowns and were sent away to mental institutions. Men beat their wives, wives and husbands cheated, many hated each others and everything else.
A MAJOR point of contention has always been finances...and food. About 25% of all men couldn't find jobs during the Depression.....how could they support a family?
Looking at it that way, social welfare HELPED the family by providing a floor of at least food and the very basics of public health.
None of this would be happening if LBJ and others expanded the welfare state. Welfare has replaced the husband in anything below the upper middle class. Before welfare, all men found wives and children were raised by two loving parents. Because of welfare many men are unwanted and unneeded. Our whole society will fall apart because of this...not to mention our debt will continue to spiral out of control. May God damned everyone who uses government transfer payments to raise their children and may God especially damn LBJ and all politicians who invented these evil programs.
I don't know. Maybe you've heard, but women have come a long way in the last 55 or so years. They're far better educated (there are more female than male undergraduates, and some reports say there are more women than men in graduate and professional schools). Isn't that a positive thing, or do men really want women who marry and stay with them because those women have few to no other options?
I think you're wrong if you think marriages of yesteryear were happier and more committed than marriages today. My paternal grandmother, for example, married my grandfather when they were both in their early 20s and stayed married to him for over 40 years until he died.
When I asked her once, a couple of years later, if she ever missed him (because she almost never talked about him), she shrugged disinterestedly and said, "no, not really. I was tired of his drinking. But, at least I never had to work." That's honestly what she said. As a young woman in my early 20s at the time, I was stunned.
She obviously had felt no great affection for him, but, in her mind, staying with him was better than the denigration, the public embarrassment, the horror of having to go out and work. And there you have it.
In fairness, though, she had no education beyond a 10th grade level, and she wasn't a very curious or goal-oriented woman, so she probably realized there were few decent job opportunities available to her, even then, when most jobs required lower-level skills than they do today.
Despite higher rates of divorce and lower rates of marriage, I think the quality of marriages today is higher than it was 50 or 60 years ago. And that is due in part to higher education and other opportunities for women, which, contrary to what the MGTOW crowd believe, have made things better for men in many ways since the 1960s.
Last edited by newdixiegirl; 04-17-2019 at 06:19 PM..
I don't know. Maybe you've heard, but women have come a long way in the last 55 or so years. They're far better educated (there are more female than male undergraduates, and some reports say there are more women than men in graduate and professional schools). Isn't that a positive thing, or do men really want women who marry and stay with them because those women have few to no other options?
I think you're wrong if you think marriages of yesteryear were happier and more committed than marriages today. My paternal grandmother, for example, married my grandfather when they were both in their early 20s and stayed married to him for over 40 years until he died.
When I asked her once, a couple of years later, if she ever missed him (because she almost never talked about him), she shrugged disinterestedly and said, "no, not really. I was tired of his drinking. But, at least I never had to work." That's honestly what she said. As a young woman in my early 20s at the time, I was stunned.
She obviously had felt no great affection for him, but, in her mind, staying with him was better than the denigration, the public embarrassment, the horror of having to go out and work. And there you have it.
In fairness, though, she had no education beyond a 10th grade level, and she wasn't a very curious or goal-oriented woman, so she probably realized there were few decent job opportunities available to her, even then, when most jobs required lower-level skills than they do today.
Despite higher rates of divorce and lower rates of marriage, I think the quality of marriages today is higher than it was 50 or 60 years ago. And that is due in part to higher education and other opportunities for women, which, contrary to what the MGTOW crowd believe, have made things better for men in many ways since the 1960s.
If women are doing so well then perhaps the courts should stop with the crushing alimony men are saddled with. Go wammen!
If women are doing so well then perhaps the courts should stop with the crushing alimony men are saddled with. Go wammen!
Tell us about this "crushing alimony" you've paid in your divorce. I take it you're wealthy?
I received a very modest one-time sum, which I needed for a down payment on a home for my 3 kids and me, since my ex got the family home (we'd moved 3 years earlier to a new state for his job, and I hadn't yet been able to secure a permanent position in my profession. I was working as a temp for a temp's wages).
I can tell you about the pittance I receive each month for "child support," as well -- only for my youngest. I didn't receive anything for his 2 older siblings. This from a man who makes an excellent income (he'd always been able to prioritize his career, which he did). Until I finally got hired permanently and earned 3 promotions in 3 years, I worked 2 jobs to stay out of debt.
Life happens. People move, and spouses follow their partners for better opportnuities. Maybe you think women are entitled to nothing of what they and their exes built over many years?
But, the bigger question is whether you are smart. If so, you have never been married....I know many a MGTOW who have been twice or thrice before they realized that they are too self-centered to be in a relationship.
I am sorta glad that my life spanned the old and the new. My wife and I also met when we were 15, a distinct advantage. Teens simply don't think in the same way that you (as a adult) do. We can call that positive or negative, but it still rings true.
I come from the old daze when we didn't (and don't) even have separate assets or checking accounts. It's one big pot. It makes life so simple.
I heartily agree with your decision. "in sickness and in health and til death do us part" is a very tough slog. It's surely not for everyone and it's unfortunate that our society sometimes claims that it is.
I was married once. The only compromise in that relationship was she demanded and I told her to go eff herself.
So another world does exist outside your bubble of mgtow paranoia. Sounds like you live in a dysfunctional place.
Then again, some people see negativity in everything. I would think about that guilt after being around normal people. Maybe there's reason for that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan
Funny, I grew up and lived in cities my whole life. I know lots of happy couples. The vast majority of couples I know are what I would consider generally "happy", in fact. It has nothing to do with city vs. country.
Your experience is not the norm.
Do me a favor. Try to imagine 100 relationships, or I mean, try to imagine 100 couples. Just random couples that you might see in everyday life. Please tell me, how many of those couples will still be together five years from now?
Is it 100? 75? 50? 10? 5? 1?
And of the people who are together, and who end up having a child together, what percentage of them will be with each other "Till death do us part?"
In my own experience, of those 100 couples, maybe 10 of them will still be together in 10 years, and probably only 1 of them will be together in 50 years.
But, I think there is a huge generational gap. The majority from my grandparents and great-grandparents generation stayed together. But of generation-x and millennials, there are virtually zero. And even of the ones who do stay together, I'm often puzzled why they stay together. They always seem miserable. And if I were them I would have left a long time ago.
Now, if we can agree that the odds are probably heavily stacked against younger men, then at what point do you just throw up your hands and say, it ain't worth it?
With that said, I think the standards of normal aren't only generational. They cut through socio-economic class, race, religion, as well as region. Poor people have a different experience than rich people. The cities aren't the same as the countryside. And religiosity is probably the biggest factor of all. Women who go to church, and especially the more-traditional churches, are a completely different breed.
Obviously if I marched into an Amish community and said what I've been saying here, they might think I was crazy, or they would, like you, just say I've been hanging around the wrong kind of women. Which isn't false, but it confuscates reality.
I never claimed that there are no good women, but that for the average man, it is almost-impossible to find one, and most-importantly, the bad ones pretend to be good ones, and it difficult to tell them apart, until the point where they can longer keep up the charade.
All things considered, for the average man, I believe the risk/reward ratio is just too great to want anything to do with "modern women". But, modern women are often very "easy", so this is probably the best time in history to be jumping from woman to woman. If you keep your standards low, there are an unlimited number of crazies, fatties, and single-mothers you can one-night stand with.
The reason I thought it was a bit ironic that someone commented that MGTOW are anti-traditional marriage, is because the opposite is true. MGTOW don't want one-night stands. They aren't desperate for *****. They want a wife. Someone to share their lives with. But they aren't willing to risk their lives and their futures when the odds are so heavily stacked against them.
Tell us about this "crushing alimony" you've paid in your divorce. I take it you're wealthy?
I received a very modest one-time sum, which I needed for a down payment on a home for my 3 kids and me, since my ex got the family home (we'd moved 3 years earlier to a new state for his job, and I hadn't yet been able to secure a permanent position in my profession. I was working as a temp for a temp's wages).
I can tell you about the pittance I receive each month for "child support," as well -- only for my youngest. I didn't receive anything for his 2 older siblings. This from a man who makes an excellent income (he'd always been able to prioritize his career, which he did). Until I finally got hired permanently and earned 3 promotions in 3 years, I worked 2 jobs to stay out of debt.
Life happens. People move, and spouses follow their partners for better opportnuities. Maybe you think women are entitled to nothing of what they and their exes built over many years?
I love your little story, but I've heard many others from men who were taken to the cleaners, and denied custody/visits with their own children.
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And there you have it. 