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But then California and NY has high taxes and their politicians want to find more ways to tax their citizens. This is driving people out of their states.
Other blue states such as Illinois want to follow in their footsteps.
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Originally Posted by Tall Traveler
yep, those countries would become like Cuba if they killed Capitalism.
Geez, do I have to spell this out?
We have just been told in this thread by the OP that Sweden and Denmark aren't socialist, but instead are capitalist.
States like California, NY and Illinois are essentially trying to emulate Sweden and Denmark. Not Cuba.
Thus, it logically follows that California, NY and Illinois aren't socialist, but instead are capitalist.
Got it?
There's no danger of them becoming like Cuba, because they aren't trying emulate Cuba. They're trying to emulate Sweden and Denmark.
I'm sorry if that kills the "California is a socialist state that's going to be like Venezuela" narrative, but as long as conservatives like the OP come along and remind everyone that Sweden and Denmark aren't "socialist," then it is the conservatives who are killing their own narrative.
There's no danger of them becoming like Cuba, because they aren't trying emulate Cuba. They're trying to emulate Sweden and Denmark.
Trying to Emulate very small all white European societies? Thought the object was to rid yourself of these former European Colonizers? Now you want to Emulate them?
Originally Posted by travis t
How can somebody earn 'way beyond the minimum wage' when you have defined the minimum wage as whatever somebody earns?
You are playing a nonsensical game of words. For you I suggest reading Alice in Wonderland. Several times, if necessary, until it sinks in. Pay special attention to chapter 6 (Humpty Dumpty)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling
I have not said anything like that. Stop putting words into my mouth just because you don't understand how it works in Sweden. They have explained it clearly in the article I linked.
Sweden has lots of different minimum wages and hence everyone is protected from exploitation.
OK, here is what you said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling
No, in Sweden individual employees (except the highly qualified ones that earn way beyond the minimum wage, anyway) don't negotiate a minimum wage with any employers, it is guaranteed by the collective agreements between the respective unions and industries.
A wage rate specified in a CBA is just an agreement between employee and employer. You call this a 'minimum wage.' Hence by implication, according to you, any rate voluntarily agreed to is a 'minimum wage.' No one else uses the term 'minimum wage' in this way. 'Minimum wage' refers to a level established by gov't below which it is against the law to pay. In fact, Sweden does not have this.
Now I'm done debating with someone who contorts and distorts words in an inexplicable effort to make a purposeless point.
Yeah, well, as I already showed you once, and which you seem to have conveniently forgot already, here is Bernie explicitly saying his model are the Scandinavian nations.
^
Once again, starting at the 1:50 mark he explicitly says Scandinavian countries are his model, and he lists what he likes about them.
I repeat: Sanders says his model is the Scandinavian system. If the Scandinavian nations aren't really "socialist" then Bernie calling himself a "socialist" is merely a buzzword. Either that, or Scandinavian nations really are socialist, and your definition of "socialism" is an incorrect or outdated one.
Once again, you never answered the question as to which is the real Bernie: his policy proposals or his self-description of "democratic socialist."
Do you think that Bernie is a)too dumb to know the difference between 'democratic socialism' and 'social democracy?' Or does he know the difference, but just intentionally and disingenuously conflates the two? It's gotta be one or the other.
"Socialism" is not merely a 'buzzword' (whatever that might mean). It's an important English word with a well-defined meaning: "collective ownership of the means of production." Do you believe Bernie Sanders is too dumb/ignorant to know that?
Source?? I admit I do not have an authoritative source saying that Sweden has no minimum wage. However, I've read this several places. And according to this Swede: https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-minimum-wage-in-Sweden
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Sweden do not have government-regulated salaries. On a national level, Sweden have no minimum wages, so it it fully legal to pay 0 SEK.
Not that it really matters for the argument I made in post #1, but it would be nice to know the answer for sure.
PS, please don't tell me that the difference between 'democratic socialism' and 'social democracy' is a matter of semantics. 'Semantics' as used in common parlance refers to inconsequential differences of language. The differences between 'democratic socialism' and 'social democracy' are hardly inconsequential.
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Originally Posted by dsjj251
Except, you already admitted that it is semantics.
Democratic socialism has no meaning other than what Bernie Sanders says it does since he is pretty much the founder of that movement. And since you admit that he wants us to be like Sweden, then well, Social Democracy and Democratic Socialist do indeed go hand and hand.
Huh? Where did I admit that it's semantics? I couldn't have stated more clearly that it is NOT semantics. I ask you the same question. Do you believe that Bernie is ignorant of the actual definition of socialism? Or is he being disingenuous in conflating 'socialism' and 'social democracy?'
Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland and many other utopias the left calls 'socialist' are hardly socialist at all.
They still have a free-market capitalist system like the U.S. but their governments tax more for social programs.
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Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
The "left" does not call them socialist, it is the right wing "news" outlets who do (FOX, Limbaugh, etc).
Bernie and AOC both refer to them as socialist, at least by implication if not directly. Are Bernie and AOC now right wing outlets in your book?
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