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White woman (possible mentally ill) and Black cop.
In terms of scissors would taser not have been more appropriate rather than straight to firearms.
It's murder. I'm not buying the "imperfect self-defense equals manslaughter" argument.
You can't shoot a woman with scissors unless you're wheelchair-bound or a few other outlandish situations I could dream up. I wish this were in Texas where, all of a sudden, we've decided we are going to hold cops accountable.
It doesn't matter unless he was cornered, and even then it probably shouldn't matter. It's practically a certainty that if you just use your hands to defend yourself against that woman, you will survive. And you're paid to take that tiny risk that you won't.
They should be trained to de-esculate, wait for back-up and use only necessary force, and perhaps more training in relation to the mentally ill might also help.
Given that officers can take people down with objects such as scissors with a taser or other non lethal, or through rush tactics and shields, as is done every day of the week in terms of violent prisoners with shanks by teams of prison officers.
Mental Health nurses also manage to contain dangerous people without resorting to firearms, and in terms of the UK, the vast majority of police don't even carry a firearm in the first place.
If the woman had pointed a gun at the officers then fair enough, however shooting someone for pointing a pair of scissors is not fair enough, not does it constitute reasonable or necessary force, and that is the law in a lot of western countries outside of the US.
I won't say you are wrong that today in America police are very quick to shoot. I'm not saying this was a good example of being too quick to shoot. There are worse examples.
I do think to a degree this became more the rules of engagement maybe in the 1990s following Supreme Court ruling. It seemed in the past American cops were less likely to shoot and more willing to try to overpower a suspect or contain the suspect. I'm trying to think of an example... Jack Ruby shot Oswald and the officer escorting Oswald grabbed the gun and wrestled it away. I can't imagine police today doing anything but drawing their guns and firing.
America has always been more violent and rough and tumble than England being carved out of a frontier and with so much diversity, especially more violent by the 1960s. The rules probably have to be different. I can see a future where European and British police might have to become more aggressive.
Hell, no, he didn't. The right thing is to retreat. She was not a threat, and you can't kill people just to save time.
While ideally giving the suspect a few "Stop or I will shoot"-type warnings would help, realistically that doesn't always happen. There are times where spur of the moment reactions like shooting a suspect occur will occur. From a retrospective standpoint, might have such a decision been a bad or good idea? Depends.
Here are your protests. SO where are the ones for the white lady??
You can't tell the difference between a unarmed woman sitting in her home minding her own business being killed by a police officer and a deranged woman with scissors about to attack a police officer who repeatedly warned her to disarm?
It's murder. I'm not buying the "imperfect self-defense equals manslaughter" argument.
You can't shoot a woman with scissors unless you're wheelchair-bound or a few other outlandish situations I could dream up. I wish this were in Texas where, all of a sudden, we've decided we are going to hold cops accountable.
Here in Texas you can stand your ground. Good shoot.
Watching the store corner cam. Not sure it was a good shoot.
Couple of things.
1) Cop is wearing a vest, that provides protection from stabbing objects like scissors. It covers major organs.
2) The Cop is 6' or more the womans boobs barely clear a 3.5' counter
3) Tuler drill only applies to your holstered weapon, once it's in your hands pointed at the target 21' isn't minimum safe distance.
When she was yelling behind the counter CS her. Issue resolved.
Grab a chair and pin her she's tiny a chair will prevent serious injury.
Call for back up, and wait, no one in there seems particularly afraid for their life, even the cop, he even tells one guy to get out after she was shot. More than once during the altercation when she makes an aggressive move he steps forward, that's not a fear response, it's an aggressive response.
After the shoot, he stands covering her, rather than clearing the area and restraining her to administer aid. That could have saved her life too.
It is what it is. Probably not enough to say it wasn't a good shoot, but, it was handled badly and didn't need to end with the woman dying.
And yeah the guys a cop, he signed up to take risks we wouldn't and that includes the risk of being injured. Cops need to accept this and deal with it. When was the last time you heard fire fighters complain about the risk of being burned? Almost never. Interesting you hear about the risks cops take every 6 seconds.
In Europe and other parts of the world the amount of force used must be reasonable and proportionate and the degree of force used must be the minimum required in the circumstances to achieve the lawful objective, otherwise, it is likely that the use of force will be excessive and unlawful.
In this case other options were available, and not only would this be seen as excessive force in many countries it would also not adhere to Article 2 'The Right to Life' of the European Convention on Human Rights.
Even from a US point of view, the video below posted by somebodyfromnc raises some interesting points in relation to the shooting being absolutely necessary and a last resort.
Brave New World, if you don't agree with how things are done in the United States, then stay in the United Kingdom... Seriously, you guys have your own issues to deal first with before acting superior and sitting in judgement of my country.
Btw, has your British police officers, especially in the London area, stopped that knife/sharpened object crime wave on your own street yet??
It's sad that this woman with mental issues was shot and died of her wounds... But in the United States, our police are not paid to die in the name of political correctness... Especially European/UN political correctness. That officer did what he had to do and he is alive today. And the sad thing is that this officer will have to live with the fact that had to lawfully shoot another human being. I'm sure his loved ones are glad that he's OK and not the one on the ground with a pair of scissors sticking out of his chest. Btw, the body armor worn by most American uniformed officers will not stop knives or other pointed weapon's attacks.
Believe it or not, our cops are not Cowboys looking to shoot people... That cop is going through hell and will most likely spend the rest of his life second guessing himself.
As for the Americans that are critical of the police, they are seriously hiring people since they're in need of officers badly. Not too many people these days what to deal with that type of crap and then be judged on TV. Here in Seattle, new hires get a $10,000.00 sign on bonus and current police officers receive a $15,000.00 cash bonus AND moving expenses for transferring... So here is your chance to make a difference.
Since "Europeans" are so superior to Americans, how do you think this would have been handled in Russia? They would shot her too, but then drive over to her husband's apartment and beat the crap out of him for not controlling his wife.
Also, your European Convention on Rights to Life means nothing here in the United States.
Last edited by bergun; 11-08-2019 at 03:18 AM..
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