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Thus if you believe that you live in a "society", then you've already accepted the doctrine that laws should exist for the greater good. The only question then is, what kind of society do you want to live in? Do you want one where prostitutes and drug-dealers walk the streets around your house? Where people walk around naked having sex? Polygamy, gambling, open-borders. Are there any restrictions which aren't an abridgment of "personal freedom" according to the libertarian dogma?
Regardless of all the howling and screeching about freedom and liberty, no one actually wants to live in that world. So what kind of world do people actually want to live in? What makes us happy?
Good questions. Your example of a perverse and dangerous society I actually find to be acceptable. Especially the part about walking around naked and having sex in public. I find it odd that as the 20th century progressed, taboos on clothing and sexuality dissipated, but then, reached a plateau. Nudity on public beaches, for example, is no more accepted today than it was in 1970; and probably even less. We have on such matters become more conservative, not less.
But then again, I am not raising children. I'm not a young-person trying to make my way in the world, who needs good guidance. I'm not an elderly person stooped with osteoporosis, struggling to walk upstairs, who needs reliable assistance. The protections of what's termed civilized society are of relatively little importance to me, and the restrictions are relatively more grating. To have drug-dealers or prostitutes as neighbors is not necessarily a feature that I'd seek; but it wouldn't bother me. I would be more bothered by having a church next door, with ringing bells that disturb my sleep.
That we live in a world of greater-good-doctrine is of course an inevitable reality. I can't exactly declare my own nation, buying some island in the Pacific and hoisting my own flag. Even if there were adequate material resources to do that, what would I do for national defense? Or trade? Or, ahem, internet access, to post on forums? So the reality of accepting, however grudgingly, the burdens and constraints of civilized society, is inevitable. However, let's please not assert that this is somehow desirable. It is not.
Just to give a trivial example, it is my preference to not get traffic-tickets, or to lose my license. Thus I dutifully wear my seat-belt. The seat-belt wars were fought and lost in the 1980s. I remember, because that is when I was sitting through driver-education class. The society in which I currently live, is a seat-belt society. It simply is, full stop. So, I obey. But it is not the society that I'd prefer. I'd prefer a society where it was acceptable to not only not wear seat-belts, but to unbolt them and to throw them into the trash can. Once upon a time, this was actually done. So... is that liberal, or conservative?
Have you read the Republican party’s 1860 platform from the link that I gave you? Please go read that document before continuing the discussion.
I read what they said. Are you telling me Abraham Lincoln was for states' rights? Was the Republican Party for small-government? Was the Republican Party not a protectionist, corporatist, and nationalist party that vastly increased government spending?
And what does any of this have to do with the Declaration of Independence? What would Thomas Jefferson think of Abraham Lincoln?
Yes I say this because there is a large number of the Trump base that just blindly fallow him and his nut bag friends like Lindell. I want my country back. Bring back the Reagan platform low taxes and the bill of rights and call out both sides of the aisle when they are acting nuts. We don't have control of the institutions and we should protest and do good things that promote our cause but when we cling to Q and the like we won't win period/ Trump does not deserve to have the title of the leader of the GOP. But our leaders are too cowardly to stand up to him. We are at a crossroads.
We will need to flood an area of the country, kick out the 3rd world people and social justice losers. 2 state solution.
And kick out blacks, educated people, LGBTQ People, people who disagree with you, and people who read well enough to understand what in our constitution.
Loosing all conservative ideologies means everyone looses everything. I'd like to think people will rebel against "progressive" things that really aren't before we hit that point.
Your example of a perverse and dangerous society I actually find to be acceptable. Especially the part about walking around naked and having sex in public. To have drug-dealers or prostitutes as neighbors is not necessarily a feature that I'd seek; but it wouldn't bother me... But then again, I am not raising children.
This doesn't surprise me at all. Do you think you would feel differently if you had children?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohio_peasant
So the reality of accepting, however grudgingly, the burdens and constraints of civilized society, is inevitable.
But what if you don't even want to be part of "civil society"? What if you're basically Ted Kaczynski?
Your definition of conservatism was, "adhering to tradition and established norms". What do you mean by tradition? And what do you mean by established norms?
An established norm really just means anything that is established. Is women's suffrage a "tradition or established norm"? If you're defining traditional as "what the country was founded on", then no. And by that definition, if you don't think voting should be restricted to only rich white men then you are not conservative.
If tradition refers to things from before the United States was founded, then capitalism isn't necessarily traditional either. In fact, the founding fathers were the liberals of their day.
How many years have to elapse before something becomes a tradition? Roe v. Wade was almost 50 years ago. So does that make abortion an American tradition?
Your definition of conservative is arbitrary and contradictory. We all know what we mean when we say conservative, and it doesn't mean libertarian.
Nope wrong again. It's not arbitrary or contradictory. Gay marriage is a brand new thing, relatively, in the history of the nation. It's not part of our long term tradition and it's certainly not a "norm," as it likely affects less than a couple percent of the nation.
Also, you're making my point about "liberal" and "conservative."
The founders were tired of the established norms and traditions of England, where you did it the King's way or you pounded salt, so they broke away and founded their own country where capitalism and individual liberty was implemented. Yes, they were "liberals" or "progressives" in breaking away from Britain. Modern conservatives are "conservative" for wanting to keep the philosophies and concepts that those people used to establish the USA.
Yes I say this because there is a large number of the Trump base that just blindly fallow him and his nut bag friends like Lindell. I want my country back. Bring back the Reagan platform low taxes and the bill of rights and call out both sides of the aisle when they are acting nuts. We don't have control of the institutions and we should protest and do good things that promote our cause but when we cling to Q and the like we won't win period/ Trump does not deserve to have the title of the leader of the GOP. But our leaders are too cowardly to stand up to him. We are at a crossroads.
Oh good lord please stop with this incessant "Q" garbage.
I'm a Trump supporter as well as 90% of my friends, family, coworkers, and NONE of them know what the hell "Q" is.
If you can't understand that the Trump platform is popular, even if he is polarizing, then you are missing the boat.
You, mitt romney, liz cheney, and paul ryan can go reminisce about old times and losing the 2008 and 2012 elections.
"Q" is a construct of the left, just like "Russia," or "Systemic Racism" or whatever other buzzword they use to squelch conversation.
The conservatives won. The liberals lost. Capitalism is the ruling paradigm everywhere on Planet Earth except North Korea and a few other backwaters.
Conservatives should not be such sore winners.
You'd have a point if it weren't for the fact that the average Liberal is also a capitalist.
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