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None of us probably have enough information to render judgement either way (whether the bombing was justified or not), but in my mind, the bombing of Hiroshima was one of the darkest days in US history. I can't even begin to imagine the soul searching US leaders did before making the decision or the horror endured by the victims. It breaks my heart that we (the world) can't find a better way to resolve our differences other than exterminating tens of thousands of people.
I hear what you’re saying and “I” agree with most of your points…. But!! It appears that you are solely forming an opinion, after the fact. World War Two was the most destructive war to date. Yes, thousands of people were killed in those two atomic bombings, but are you saying that the invasion of Japan should have taken place over the dropping of two atomic bombs? You have to remember that in August 1945, the United States was fighting a total war with an aggressor country, Japan that attacked the United States without warning, killing thousands of military and civilians and a country that was defeated by August 1945, but stated, prior to the bombings, they planned to fight to the end and made unreasonable peace terms that would have left them with a military force. The United States, clearly stated that unconditional surrender was the only way to stop this war.
You have to remember that the United States tried numerous time, prior to December 7, 1941 to end Japanese aggression, but the Japanese refused to resolve this matter peacefully, but rather attacked most every country in Asian.
To make it very clear, the Japanese government was unreasonable from the 1930s and up to the time in August 1945, when their emperor finally ordered an unconditional surrender of the Japanese military and people.
Again, as I stated in my previous post, those two bombs convinced an unreasonable AND aggressive Japanese government to be finally reasonable or face a total destruction of their country and people.
It’s easy to look at this with August 2022 eyes, but put ourself in the boots of some scared 18-19 year old that would have been part of the invasion force and facing the likelihood of being killed on a Japanese beach. Also look at the fact that Japan would have lost close to the mid 40%, but most likely closer to 60% of the Japanese total population, during that invasion.
Also, at that point in 1945, the American people were tired and wanted this nightmare of a war to end asap.
.
Look, this is what happened years ago.
Japan was bombed non stop.
Report to the emperor's court and top military brass said - a new type of bomb was used in bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
That was not even noticed as something significant.
But what WAS noticed, was that USSR army started advance in Manchuria and wiping out Japanese army. Now, THAT caused Japan surrender as, if not, Soviet tanks would have been rolling through Tokyo soon enough.
Don't think too high of those two bombs. That was just a political affront to USSR at Japanese expense. To what they got what they asked for - hydrogen bombs and the Tsar Bomb. And, lately, Sarmats and Yuri Dolgoruki submarine. Russian bear is sometimes best left not teased.
You can always tell when some young person with little history knowledge spotted some youtube video etc. about how we nuked Japan and we didn't need to and were big meanies etc. etc.
You can read through this thread for pointers but the big one that is often completely overlooked is that Japan in it's occupied territories around Asia (Korea, China, Malaysia, India etc.) averaged about 100k dead civilians each month for about a decade leading up to the nuclear bomb being dropped.
Just let that sink in before engaging your grossly incomplete, western-centric viewpoint of the war.
Maybe go ask some older Chinese or Koreans what they think.
Look, this is what happened years ago.
Japan was bombed non stop.
Report to the emperor's court and top military brass said - a new type of bomb was used in bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
That was not even noticed as something significant.
But what WAS noticed, was that USSR army started advance in Manchuria and wiping out Japanese army. Now, THAT caused Japan surrender as, if not, Soviet tanks would have been rolling through Tokyo soon enough.
The russian land army was formidable at wars end and the Japanese were mauled in short order.
That being said, Russia had zero real capability to launch a sea invasion of Japan, nor did they have any desire to do so.
Japan up until that point still felt they had a bargaining chip but Russia took that away so credit where credit is due, Russia has the utmost respect from anyone that really knows WW2 history but they weren't doing squat across 250 miles of ocean, they've never remotely been a naval power.
I hear what you’re saying and “I” agree with most of your points…. But!! It appears that you are solely forming an opinion, after the fact. World War Two was the most destructive war to date. Yes, thousands of people were killed in those two atomic bombings, but are you saying that the invasion of Japan should have taken place over the dropping of two atomic bombs? You have to remember that in August 1945, the United States was fighting a total war with an aggressor country, Japan that attacked the United States without warning, killing thousands of military and civilians and a country that was defeated by August 1945, but stated, prior to the bombings, they planned to fight to the end and made unreasonable peace terms that would have left them with a military force. The United States, clearly stated that unconditional surrender was the only way to stop this war.
You have to remember that the United States tried numerous time, prior to December 7, 1941 to end Japanese aggression, but the Japanese refused to resolve this matter peacefully, but rather attacked most every country in Asian.
To make it very clear, the Japanese government was unreasonable from the 1930s and up to the time in August 1945, when their emperor finally ordered an unconditional surrender of the Japanese military and people.
Again, as I stated in my previous post, those two bombs convinced an unreasonable AND aggressive Japanese government to be finally reasonable or face a total destruction of their country and people.
It’s easy to look at this with August 2022 eyes, but put ourself in the boots of some scared 18-19 year old that would have been part of the invasion force and facing the likelihood of being killed on a Japanese beach. Also look at the fact that Japan would have lost close to the mid 40%, but most likely closer to 60% of the Japanese total population, during that invasion.
Also, at that point in 1945, the American people were tired and wanted this nightmare of a war to end asap.
.
You're right, of course. I just wish there had been some other alternative.
Well, the campaign of incendiary napalm bombs raining down on Japan's cities was doing immeasurable damage to their industry and urban existence as much as, or more than, the A-bombs. Sixty-seven cities were napalmed, wiping out 20-80 percent of the cities' residential, industrial and infrastructure development even before the A-bomb was ready to be dropped. One raid on Tokyo killed 90,000-100,000 people. Osaka was firebombed repeatedly, nine times between March and August 1945. The huge (5+ ton), high explosive, "Pumpkin" bombs were also being dropped. If you can fly 250 bombers over a city at one time dropping napalm, you have pretty much gained control of the air and could drop A-bombs just as easily with such air superiority. The attack on Hiroshima and then Nagasaki was a hint at what was going to happen unless they agreed to surrender. (The Soviet advance into Japanese-held Manchuria took place the same time as the Nagasaki bombing.)
Truman's August 9th message to the Japanese people after the 2nd A-bomb spelled it out...
The British, Chinese, and United States Governments have given the Japanese people adequate warning of what is in store for them. We have laid down the general terms on which they can surrender. Our warning went unheeded; our terms were rejected. Since then the Japanese have seen what our atomic bomb can do. They can foresee what it will do in the future.
Look, this is what happened years ago.
Japan was bombed non stop.
Report to the emperor's court and top military brass said - a new type of bomb was used in bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
That was not even noticed as something significant.
But what WAS noticed, was that USSR army started advance in Manchuria and wiping out Japanese army. Now, THAT caused Japan surrender as, if not, Soviet tanks would have been rolling through Tokyo soon enough.
Don't think too high of those two bombs. That was just a political affront to USSR at Japanese expense. To what they got what they asked for - hydrogen bombs and the Tsar Bomb. And, lately, Sarmats and Yuri Dolgoruki submarine. Russian bear is sometimes best left not teased.
The Soviet Bear was swatted to the ground by the Bretton Woods agreement, which opened up free trade to the rest of the world. That free trade agreement countered the Soviet approach, which was to occupy and rule all conquered countries.
In 1972 Nixon even managed to bring China on board and even though it took some years, the power of China, Japan, and Europe all trading with America created a power the Soviets could not resist and the USSR failed.
Russia is now in the process of failing for the same reasons. The world has united against them and the infamous Bear will be reduced to a harmless mass of leaderless people living in a very poor climate.
The Russian Bear has no teeth; that was shown when Russia provided inadequate weapons to Iraq.
The Russian Bully will be silenced in due time, and will pass away into history.
An attractive scenario during wartime. But, the development of the B-29 was already going as fast as it could be pushed. Planes were already arriving in squadrons accompanied with huge sheafs of paper telling the mechanics what to modify, what to add etc. to bring the planes to full combat capability, or at least to get them off the ground with full armament and bomb loads.
And the Bomb was being pushed even harder. Nobody really knew it would work at all, until the first one was detonated in the New Mexico desert as a test in July 1945. What do you feel could have been accelerated even more, to get the first combat-capable one over its target in Japan BEFORE August 5, 1945 U.S. time?
I said "I wish". I know all the reasons why it couldn't have happened sooner. Einstein and Szilard's warning to Roosevelt in '39. Manhattan project started in '42. B29s first into service in '44. Tinian taken Aug '44. Bomb dropped in Aug '45. This is a very compressed schedule. Only three years from the time a couple of theoretical physicists warned Roosevelt about a purely hypothetical threat until the start of the Manhattan project. Then there were parallel efforts of the nuclear engineering, development of a long range bomber and the bloody island-hopping campaign to push West across the Pacific to obtain airfields in range of Japan (not just for the atomic bombing). Lots of dependencies and all done very quickly. So when I say "I wish" it's a statement of fantasy. Point being that if I could snap my fingers and change something about the history of the atomic bombings of Japan I would make it happen sooner and we would have hit them even harder.
On another note - Someone here (I think maybe Math Guy) commented that you can always identify a youngster who has just recently become aware of the free-standing out-of-context factoid that the US used atomic weapons on Japan. The disapproval and finger-wagging judgements with little to no basis in historical understanding just light up the page like a neon sign saying "NEWB TO LIFE". I'd like to suggest for their consideration the purely selfish idea that if we had not used the bombs and had instead invaded the Japanese homeland that a million American men could have died making it probable that a whole lot of us wouldn't even exist today.
None of us probably have enough information to render judgement either way (whether the bombing was justified or not)
We don't???
We were at WAR. And Japan was at war, not only with us, but against millions of Chinese people, Singapore, Burma, the Philippines, and a lot of other countries. And the Japanese' unspeakable cruelty and bloodletting had been going on there for nearly 10 years.
Then-President Truman said about the atomic Bomb, "It was a bigger piece of artillery, so we used it."
Did you NOT want the war to end as quickly as it did?
Last edited by Roboteer; 08-06-2022 at 01:52 PM..
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