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Old 03-05-2022, 12:02 PM
 
7,736 posts, read 4,991,313 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative View Post
Actually Jimmy you are proving the point, Russia can attack Ukraine now and possibly one day as you say, Finland, because they are NOT part of NATO. They are alone without allies.

I get it. Russia wants to be an independent Great Power. But if she keeps attacking and/or undermining her neighbors she cannot be shocked that they are going to want to ally themselves defensively.
Keep on eye on Taiwan . China is watching . They know the US will not do a damn thing if they take Taiwan . They will be making their move next . There’s nothing that can be done . China can cut off all our exports and the US is TOAST. The East is exposing all our weaknesses right now . Reliance on foreign imports and producing 0

Covid proved this .
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Old 03-05-2022, 12:25 PM
 
30,065 posts, read 18,674,911 times
Reputation: 20886
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmyp25 View Post
This aged well. 6 years old. Its a good listen.





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4
Obama helped install a government in Ukraine that was hostile to Russia and more friendly to the west. Leave it to Obama to screw things up.
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Old 03-05-2022, 12:28 PM
 
30,065 posts, read 18,674,911 times
Reputation: 20886
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmyp25 View Post
Keep on eye on Taiwan . China is watching . They know the US will not do a damn thing if they take Taiwan . They will be making their move next . There’s nothing that can be done . China can cut off all our exports and the US is TOAST. The East is exposing all our weaknesses right now . Reliance on foreign imports and producing 0

Covid proved this .
US citizens are finding that the DNC and the oligarchs installing a weak, incompetent, corrupt "president" is having consequences that none of them foresaw.

Biden is the most dangerous president in US history. Not only does his dementia compromise any decisions, but his weakness invites our enemies to press their advantage and Biden's corruption prevents a legitimate response.
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Old 03-05-2022, 12:53 PM
 
8,502 posts, read 3,344,621 times
Reputation: 7035
Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative View Post
As little as two weeks ago, I suggested here on City-Data that the West should negotiate with Russia about Ukraine becoming a neutral state (similar to Finland during the Cold War) and even possible recognition of Crimea as part of Russia.

I now realize I was wrong.

If NATO did not exist, Putin would be invading Ukraine anyway. And if NATO did not exist he would invade the Baltic States, Moldova, Poland, Romania, Georgia etc. if he didn't invade them already.

It is not NATO that is the problem. It is not the European Union that is the problem. It is not the USA or Canada that is the problem. It is not Ukraine or Georgia or Moldova or Poland that is the problem. It is not neutral nations like Sweden, Finland, Ireland and now Switzerland that is the problem. And certainly not BS propaganda about Nazis running Ukraine that is the problem.
Precisely, my bold of your text.

Mearsheimer's arguments make theoretical sense, as did Kissinger's. The problem is that's not how Putin thinks.

NATO is only relevant here because Putin needed to invade prior to any possible Ukraine-accession - because he wanted Ukraine period. One way or another. Ukraine is an integral part of "mother Russia." In addition, he is deeply deeply deeply angered at its increasing rejection of a role within the Russian orbit. His February 21st speech makes that clear.

Not wanting a possible ww3, Putin simply did it before Ukraine could have joined NATO. In a bizarre way, he was trying to do the world a favor.
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Old 03-05-2022, 01:02 PM
 
8,502 posts, read 3,344,621 times
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I've heard the Mearsheimer lecture before. HE ALSO SAID: Putin would never be foolish enough to invade the country, stating he could accomplish his goals by other means. That Putin was too shrewd to take that step.

Curious as to what he thought in the PRESENT, I googled to find Mearsheimer participating in a short interview right before the invasion:
https://news.wttw.com/2022/02/21/us-...ukraine-crisis

His take was an invasion remained unlikely due to the enormous economic ramifications for Russia ... the difficulty in occupying Ukraine. More, Putin did not NEED to invade to accomplish his goal. Putting troops on the border is enough of a demonstration to make it "impossible" that Ukraine would ever become part of NATO. A "smart" Putin will "sit back and continue to pull the levers as he's been doing."

Clearly Mearsheimer was wrong. Putin's goals were not strategic for Putin appears driven more by blind emotion and anger. Frankly, I think he would have always have stopped at Ukraine, ignoring the Baltics (former USSR) or Bulgaria (egress from Black Sea). Want to understand Putin? Listen to Putin.

A Putin who is less shrewd and possibly even less stable than the world assumed.
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Old 03-05-2022, 01:33 PM
 
30,170 posts, read 11,809,456 times
Reputation: 18696
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmyp25 View Post
He explains that it was idiotic to give a article 5 guarantee/promise to a NON-Strategic european ally like Ukraine and cause the friction.

The problem is Putin. Everything else is basically if we just did a better job walking on eggshells around a madman we would not have set him off.


The problem is Putin and only Putin.
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Old 03-05-2022, 01:37 PM
 
30,170 posts, read 11,809,456 times
Reputation: 18696
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmyp25 View Post
Keep on eye on Taiwan . China is watching . They know the US will not do a damn thing if they take Taiwan . They will be making their move next . There’s nothing that can be done . China can cut off all our exports and the US is TOAST. The East is exposing all our weaknesses right now . Reliance on foreign imports and producing 0

Covid proved this .

Let China do that. We won't be toast. We may not be able to make toast since all the toasters are made in China. We just got fat and lazy with the cheap things coming over from China. I am getting tired of worrying about what China or Russia "might" do to us.
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Old 03-05-2022, 01:43 PM
 
Location: NE Mississippi
25,580 posts, read 17,298,699 times
Reputation: 37349
Quote:
Originally Posted by EveryLady View Post
I've heard the Mearsheimer lecture before. HE ALSO SAID: Putin would never be foolish enough to invade the country, stating he could accomplish his goals by other means. That Putin was too shrewd to take that step.

Curious as to what he thought in the PRESENT, I googled to find Mearsheimer participating in a short interview right before the invasion:
https://news.wttw.com/2022/02/21/us-...ukraine-crisis

His take was an invasion remained unlikely due to the enormous economic ramifications for Russia ... the difficulty in occupying Ukraine. More, Putin did not NEED to invade to accomplish his goal. Putting troops on the border is enough of a demonstration to make it "impossible" that Ukraine would ever become part of NATO. A "smart" Putin will "sit back and continue to pull the levers as he's been doing."

Clearly Mearsheimer was wrong. Putin's goals were not strategic for Putin appears driven more by blind emotion and anger. Frankly, I think he would have always have stopped at Ukraine, ignoring the Baltics (former USSR) or Bulgaria (egress from Black Sea). Want to understand Putin? Listen to Putin.

A Putin who is less shrewd and possibly even less stable than the world assumed.
Admiral William McRaven, who is one of my favorite people in the world, shares your assessment. His book, "Make Your Bed" is short, but it will light your fire!
Here, he is interviewed on CNN (just hold your nose and click) and asked the right questions. His response is direct and well thought out. He is not a "Chin Scratcher".
In addition to your points, Adm McRaven makes the observation that perhaps Putin surrounded himself with yes-men and made a colossal misjudgment. He opines that Putin will not survive the war and its outcome as leader.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9RI...ab_channel=CNN
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Old 03-05-2022, 01:50 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,436,629 times
Reputation: 4831
Quote:
Originally Posted by snj90 View Post
I can't stand this pseudointellectual nonsense. Russia is waging a war of aggression, and anyone can see that and understand it. This is Russia's fault. This claptrap is no more than victim blaming - e.g., why a rape is actually the victim's fault.
snj, Ukraine has been arming Nazi war criminals. They are the rapists.
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Old 03-05-2022, 05:06 PM
 
Location: Pacific Northwest
3,845 posts, read 1,789,905 times
Reputation: 5021
Watching the John Mearsheimer video now. So far, it's pretty informative. Thanks for sharing!
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