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My memory might be a bit fuzzy on this, but IIRC, 9/11 brought assurance that "other allied countries" to us, independent or part of our "world organizations".. the ONLY (or first?) Country to show "solidarity" with us...was Queen Elizabeth II and the UK.
And even then, it was a thin solidarity.
Your memory is quite fuzzy, so let me refresh: NATO invoked Article 5 for the first time ever, and offered military assistance in no uncertain terms. It was the US who said "We'll appreciate help, but not under the NATO framework". Then Afghanistan, with pretty much every NATO country chipping in - including Germany, who really, really hates sending troops anywhere. Heck, my own country took more casualties per capita in Afghanistan than any other country in that very wide coalition. (You're so freakin' welcome.)
Less fuzzy?
Of course, then George the Unready, pushed by Cheney <spat> and Rumsfeld <spat> and eagerly assisted by Murdoch's propaganda outlets decided to cash in on all this goodwill and dust off the old PNAC plan for invading Iraq. And that's when a lot of the countries who had troops in Afghanistan wasn't quite on board any more. Which was the right move.
I don’t fully trust him either. He is invoking MLK, Pearl Harbor, Winston Churchill references to the west while pleading for a no fly zone, something feels off here. How does he not understand by now that we are not going to war for him? He just took NATO off the table, at a certain point he has to do what’s best for his people and come to an agreement here, the US is not going to help him with this either. We are using Ukraine to hammer Russia economically and weaken them militarily, at a certain point Ukraine has to ask if they want to continue being used for the purpose while their country is wrecked and more citizens flee. I would tell Biden help me negotiate or we’re done here.
It's not an ideal scenario and people can argue all they want about the violation of sovereignty (like the arm twisting caused by the main fascistic beneficiaries of the Euromaidan movement doesn't already mean the same thing) but going the way of Austria or Finland isn't the worst scenario. I agree. Ukraine should work on becoming a neutral zone with no allegiances to either side.
You have concerns from US officials of the Chinese sending high altitude predator drones to reinforce Russia in Ukraine. It's obvious how quickly this is escalating. China is aware of the colour revolutions fomented by the West in important locations like Kazakhstan. They appreciate the danger this presents as Kazakhstan happens to share a considerable border with them. What's going on in Ukraine is partly motivated by that same covert manipulation of governments reaching back to 2014 though I don't condone Russia's invasion.
It's not an ideal scenario and people can argue all they want about the violation of sovereignty (like the arm twisting caused by the main fascistic beneficiaries of the Euromaidan movement doesn't already mean the same thing) but going the way of Austria or Finland isn't the worst scenario. I agree. Ukraine should work on becoming a neutral zone with no allegiances to either side.
You have concerns from US officials of the Chinese sending high altitude predator drones to reinforce Russia in Ukraine. It's obvious how quickly this is escalating. China is aware of the colour revolutions fomented by the West in important locations like Kazakhstan. They appreciate the danger this presents as Kazakhstan happens to share a considerable border with them. What's going on in Ukraine is partly motivated by that same covert manipulation of governments reaching back to 2014 though I don't condone Russia's invasion.
If only foreign policy was ran by people like us, we wouldn’t put the US and our allies in these positions. These officials running the state department can’t see past their own budgets and throw money around like candy in the name of advancing “US interests”. Problem is they are unelected bureaucrats and never explain to us what exactly those interests and goals are. And more importantly, the possible consequences of their actions.
I DON'T normally post in this particular forum, mostly the retirement, financial and a few others, but I feel so strongly about this, I have to speak up.
According to CNN, Ukraine president Zelensky says he doesn't see Ukraine joining NATO.
hmmm... I thought (perhaps erroneously, or due to media hype...by ANY news source) that the biggest reason Putin invaded Ukraine was because Ukraine was hedging on joining NATO like it's neighbors?
If this is true...then we, the NATO nations need to completely pull our support out of the area... except to protect ONLY the NATO countries...IF Putin gets "bigger ideas" about going after the NATO neighbors.
Sorry, Zelensky...and Ukraine...you're on your own then.
Oh, and NO, NATO countries and allies will no longer take "your tired, poor huddled masses" of escapees of women, children and those over 60.
The NATO countries borders are hereby CLOSED to your people.
( I should clarify: this sentiment is that IF Ukraine CAN'T protect its own people, why should NATO? Put a machine gun in the hands of the women and a ten minute lesson on how to use it.. THEY can also step up to protect their children! And because Europe is already overrun with refugees from other wars and tyrant ruled countries!)
I'm also pretty much sure Putin picked the easiest way to "poke the bear" that is USA, by making this maneuver, knowing/thinking he can draw USA into his war..aka WWIII, and he can then blame the USA, and Biden, McConnell, pelosis for it.
I'm tired of the USA fighting everyone else's wars. (Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan et al.)
Time for BIG BROTHER to MAKE these countries.. loosely allies (or not) buck up and fight their own bullies.
We already more than support military funds, weaponry and personnel than the other countries within these "world organizations" we belong to.
I say "NO MORE". WE, the USA, will only, at most, Only match these countries contributions..in funds, weaponry (and NOT our "best".. we'll save those to protect A#1, not others) and personnel that ANY county is also willing/able to muster.
THAT might be the best way for BIG BROTHER to operate hereafter.
What do you guys think?
Best
If it's true (which I doubt, or maybe it's only temporarily true, while his country's under fire), he's a bit late making that announcement. Like 8-10 years too late. P has been objecting to NATO expansion into Eastern Europe at least since the Obama administration. He's remained consistent on that score. As NATO continued to expand, he drew the line at Ukraine. That would have been the time for Ukraine to announce neutrality.
What exactly IS the US' justification for getting involved in this war, anyway? Is it because Ukraine is/was a potential NATO member, though not a member yet? Or was it on the basic principle, that invading an independent nation is illegal? And now Congress has been asked to impose a no-fly zone, in spite of Moscow's warnings about that?
What I think (you asked, I'm answering):
Ukraine's President needs to think of his citizenry, that's been dying or displaced by the continuation of this defense effort, that would have collapsed already if it weren't artificially prolonged by arms shipments from abroad. Hundreds of lives would have been saved, and hundreds of thousands refugees would still be at home, not to mention the destruction of entire cities (how is Ukraine, an impoverished country from the start, going to rebuild?), if Ukraine had met Russia's basic demands, one of which was about NATO membership.
Would it have been a bitter pill to swallow, to allow the western part of the country to be amputated, in order to save lives and avoid the destruction of the country's infrastructure? Yes, but OTOH, as one bright C-D member pointed out a couple of weeks ago, the Russians in the eastern region have served as a voting bloc to oppose pro-Ukraine leaders in elections. Losing a potentially subversive minority that Moscow could use to influence events in the country could be viewed as a positive development.
I'm sure the situation isn't quite so black-and-white, and that all Russians in Ukraine can't be painted with the same brush. Still, I don't see any point in prolonging a war through foreign support, when the EU is aghast at having a war explode in its midst, and is gravely concerned about the situation escalating via outside involvement. Even with outside support, Ukraine's resistance can't last forever. Congress wisely has chosen not to allow the US to get more deeply involved, and I'm not sure the EU would stand for it. That being the case, Ukraine's leadership needs to face reality sooner, rather than later.
The US was going to invade Syria and Syria asked Russia for help in defense.
Crimea voted to stay with Russia and asked Russia for help in defense.
Seems many people in the US have short memories. We were all over the ME invading and bombing for what reason ? "Democracy" ? Are any of those countries better off today ?
America first ? What does that even mean ?
These are the top 10 largest defense contractors on the 2021 BGOV200 list:
Lockheed Martin Corp.
Raytheon Technologies Corp.
General Dynamics Corp.
Boeing Co.
Northrop Grumman Corp.
Analytic Services Inc.
Huntington Ingalls Industries Inc.
Humana Inc.
Because the Estonians don't want to be Ukrained. Now try a hard one.
This, exactly. Just because the world's largest country in area, and some say--the last colonial power left standing, no longer labels itself "USSR", doesn't mean its neighbors don't feel the need for a mutual protection society among themselves.
With a former KGB officer at the helm, you can't say that the name change was accompanied by true regime change. As the French say, "The more things change, the more they stay the same". Russia's up to its old tricks. If you expect the leopard to change his spots, you'll be disappointed.
And don't forget; the USA is one of Russia's neighbors, as the erstwhile Vice Presidential candidate Sarah Palin of Alaska enjoyed pointing out.
So, create a parallel organization to Nato.... it's not Nato, functions the same.
Nato has established rules for engagement which ignore crimes against humanity which should be the event that triggers action.
Slaughter innocents, mutilate citizens, doesn;t trigger a response from the rest of the world because of Nato rules. Let's see, nope none of our rules are broken.
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