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To me, (well, as a girl who played sports her entire life. ) I would say that, fairness is important in Sports. It is, when you step on the playing field, you want that field to be level. So yes, you should talk about things like this.
Now, I feel the general belief that, "transwomen are women" is truly the problem in sports. I as a biological woman, can really care less if a man wanted to live as a woman. It really doesn't bother me. This said, it’s also true that this person was assigned male sex at birth, and so even with the testosterone levels depressed to levels equivalent to the cis peers as is required by most organizations who allow Trans athletes to compete, the Wired article points out that the transwoman still has bigger bone structure, greater lung capacity, and larger heart size, according to Alison Heather, a physiologist at the University of Otago in New Zealand.
As Ross Tucker wrote in The Caster Semenya debate | The Science of Sport:
We have a separate category for women because without it, no women would even make the Olympic Games (with the exception of equestrian). Most of the women’s world records, even doped, lie outside the top 5000 times run by men. Radcliffe’s marathon WR, for instance, is beaten by between 250 and 300 men per year. Without a women’s category, elite sport would be exclusively male.
That premise hopefully agreed, we then see that the presence of the Y chromosome is the single greatest genetic “advantage” a person can have. That doesn’t mean that all men outperform all women, but it means that for élite-sport discussion, that Y chromosome, and specifically the SRY gene on it, which directs the formation of testes and the production of testosterone, is a key criterion on which to separate people into categories.
It’s a straightforward biological issue.
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In term of transchildren, and or community level sports,
Consistency is important for a child's development. Here are some reasons why:
Consistent rules with predictable consequences help children develop a sense of responsibility.
Consistency helps children learn that "no" means "no"
Regularity, predictability, routines, orderliness, and setting and enforcing limits contribute to a positive consistent environment/
So trans children should be taught at an early age that they should respect boundaries, and there are rules and regulations.
They should be given their own category in my opinion.
That’s an interesting thought.
I agree about kids and structure and routines, and facing the reality that we don’t always get what we want.
Kids pre puberty are not really in this debate imo because sports at a pre pubescent level should be about gamesmanship and cooperative spirit, not necessarily about ultra competitiveness.
I think a lot of that comes from the sidelines, not from the children. The disgusting way a lot of parents act on the sidelines are testament to that.
The issue with having their own competition is that there really isn’t enough people to make try that worthwhile. Contrary to popular belief, there’s not that many gender non conforming kids in communities to warrant such.
Sports and fitness should be inclusive on a community and educational level for the most part, it’s good for people to get involved in and those barriers shouldn’t be too high.
Teams that are preparing kids or young adults for elite tracks in competition should absolutely be kept fair. Or even competitive community leagues etc.
If you’re a trans kid playing for fun, if other kids are playing for fun, and if safety isn’t an issue - does it matter that much?
I don’t know, maybe it does.
It’s hard to say, not everyone wants to exclude trans kids or community members from their teams.
It's not obvious. The mainstream media lies for example and pushed an obviously false narrative that Serena Williams would have won championships against the men. Some media sources even lie to the point of the women's world cup players are on par with the men in talent and ability.
This whole issue is built on science denying so the foundation isn't truthful to begin with.
Well there’s just a lot of shouting generally.
I think women are sick of their sports being dismissed out of hand.
Women’s World Cup players are on par as far as entertainment goes, if they can’t play the men’s team and win who cares? This World Cup has proven that women’s sports can be just as thrilling. Which is all that’s required of a sport imo.
A lot of men are awfully condescending about women’s sports. Well women too actually.
It doesn’t have to be this way.
I think people have a lot more common ground than not.
If you’re a trans kid playing for fun, if other kids are playing for fun, and if safety isn’t an issue - does it matter that much?
I don’t know, maybe it does.
It’s hard to say, not everyone wants to exclude trans kids or community members from their teams.
But on the whole I agree with you.
I can't speak for other people, but for myself, and my teammates. If you asked "Is winning important to you?"
The the answer would be: Of course it is, it wouldn't be a sport otherwise. This is not the case with ‘exercise’ that's different, but if you are participating in a sport, you are participating in a quest to see who's best in your particular chosen discipline. That doesn't mean you always strive to win (let alone are able to win), but someone is going to win and that's the reason for it being called a sport.
Let's say you like playing soccer and you participate in a local soccer club. You will likely play games against other teams. You think the main aim is just to play, right? When you step on the pitch, do you start kicking the ball back and forth with your opponents or do you do everything in your power to try and keep the ball away from your opponent to score a goal? You are trying to win, period.
This said, boys and girls play together all the time. I learned how to swim from my brother and I learned how to ride a bicycle from my brother as well. My dad taught me how to ride a motorcycle. I played sports with boys when I was a kid, but in term of winning a sports competition, Like I said, I can only speak for myself and everybody I know, yes, winning is very important part of sports.
All these blah blah being said, I don't have all the answers.
I can't speak for other people, but for myself, and my teammates. If you asked "Is winning important to you?"
The the answer would be: Of course it is, it wouldn't be a sport otherwise. This is not the case with ‘exercise’ that's different, but if you are participating in a sport, you are participating in a quest to see who's best in your particular chosen discipline. That doesn't mean you always strive to win (let alone are able to win), but someone is going to win and that's the reason for it being called a sport.
Let's say you like playing soccer and you participate in a local soccer club. You will likely play games against other teams. You think the main aim is just to play, right? When you step on the pitch, do you start kicking the ball back and forth with your opponents or do you do everything in your power to try and keep the ball away from your opponent to score a goal? You are trying to win, period.
This said, boys and girls play together all the time. I learned how to swim from my brother and I learned how to ride a bicycle from my brother as well. My dad taught me how to ride a motorcycle. I played sports with boys when I was a kid, but in term of winning a sports competition, Like I said, I can only speak for myself and everybody I know, yes, winning is very important part of sports.
All these blah blah being said, I don't have all the answers.
That’s completely fair.
Perhaps the major distinction here isn’t so much men and women’s sports, but competing sport v social, fitness based sorts.
I know that a lot are both, but for the less competitive lot, perhaps there’s more room for inclusiveness.
But I agree, blah blah I don’t have all the answers either.
There are some women who are traumatized from rape who feel that they are safer in an all women environment and can be triggered when they go to a women's shelter, women's therapy, or women's bathroom and see a man.
If those women's spaces can be torn down, why not sports?
There are studies saying the suicide angle is statistically way overblown and remains or even increases after transitioning, because you can't actually change your sex and it must be depressing to go through so much trauma in trying only to realize that you can't fully do it.
No one should bully anyone, but I feel we've gone too far. I have a coworker, an English teacher, who told straight boys that they're bigots and transphobic if they wouldn't date a transwoman with a penis. We want to be nice to trans people who are under emotional strain, but why must we push the lie so far that everyone has to agree with the lie (ie transwomen are real women) to the point of dating and going against one's own biology (being attracted to the opposite sex)?
We're becoming Orwellian - how is that good for society?
Transwoman with a penis. I can't imagine how that would confuse anyone, much the less young boys. We've always known them, we called them by what they are, cross dressers.
I think we need to have sports of all types to just be open events. No gender. Then we won't have to watch women's sports anymore. Just think NO women's basketball will be on TV so we can watch the top dogs. It actually could be good, right? Just watch the best regardless of gender. Bye, bye women's sports. lol. Imagine a women playing against an NBA player. A soccer player. A skier. A.....well anything really. Women, you are letting this happen. Men can only do so much as YOU have silenced us. Enjoy your life without the bull elephants in charge. Not looking good.
Yes, I’m aware. There’s no need to shout.
...
..and I posted earlier what I think are good guidelines that have been established here in Oz.
The Australian Human Rights Commission in cooperation with Sports Australia has laid out some pretty comprehensive guidelines on how to include trans and gender diverse athletes (at all levels) whilst maintaining fairness in competition where bio sex physicality is a factor.
The Act contains a permanent exemption in relation to ‘competitive sporting activity’.44 This is commonly referred to as the ‘single-sex competition’ exemption, although it does not operate to make all single-sex or single-gender sporting competitions lawful.
The exemption allows for discrimination on the grounds of sex or gender identity only in ‘any competitive sporting activity in which the strength, stamina or physique of competitors is relevant’.
The objective of the exemption is to restrict competitive sporting activity to people who
can ‘effectively compete’48 with each other.
This is intended to recognise that ‘biological differences between men and women are relevant to competitive sporting activities’.49 It can be understood as ensuring a ‘level playing field’.” https://humanrights.gov.au/sites/def...lines_2019.pdf
This approach makes sense to me. I’m not for a full ban on allowing opposite sex competitors in sports. This would mean girls who wish to play on boys’ teams will be prohibited from doing so. It also means that smaller clubs who play at community level would be prohibited from having trans people, who are part of their communities, play if they wish to allow it.
But the exemption to discrimination laws are there if clubs/pro/international teams wish to uphold that policy.
...
I posted earlier that it’s unlikely women’s sports will reach the height of popularity of entrenched men’s teams for multitudes of reasons, not the least of which is that people only have so much fandom and $$$ to give and women’s team sports on a pro level is very new in comparison. It takes generations to build up fan loyalty.
I also don’t think sports need to be a direct one to one competition between the men’s and women’s games. Soccer is generally very popular amongst girls in the US in a way that NFL type football isn’t. Perhaps we should stop trying to make women’s sports exactly like men’s. It doesn’t matter which sport ultimately proves more popular.
I'm totally onboard with sports.. men's and women's, boys or girls... because it's the only (mostly) uncorrupted thing performed and televised live on earth today.
And I was, and still am, good at many, so hail to all honest athletes!
The sooner those recommendations are secured in AU public policy the better.
But your country and mine both have a long trek back from delusion to sanity in most other aspects of transgenderist orthodoxy.
To get there we must first reclaim our common western liberal traditions of free speech and open academic and scientific inquiry.
I hope we meet there.
Last edited by PamelaIamela; 08-20-2023 at 09:57 PM..
P.S. It's not biological sex, or bio female.. or biological male..,or biological woman, or .. well, you get it, right?
No need to be redundant. It's just Sex.. Male.. Female.. Man.. Woman.
The sooner we reclaim language the sooner this bullšhit stops.
The bench press in power lifting needs new rules as people have hacked the lift by having huge arches and very little range of motion. See:
In power lifting, your butt needs to stay on the bench but no rule on lower back arch or feet placement.
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