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The GOP needs to keep pushing this falsehood. Keep telling their voters not to use mail in. Only good things can happen for the nation if the GOP can't get out their voters.
The GOP needs to keep pushing this falsehood. Keep telling their voters not to use mail in. Only good things can happen for the nation if the GOP can't get out their voters.
I don't hold out much hope. My expectation is we are moving increasingly towards a GOP meltdown.
Are you saying my City of Houston water bill comes from the State of Texas? Here's a hint, it doesn't, it comes from the City of Houston, the State has nothing to do with it. Texans have the ability to distinguish between State, County, and City. If I say "it came from the State" everyone knows it came from State government, not county or city.
This is getting pedantic. But if you want to go there, upper case 'State' is when it is attached to a proper noun such as 'State of California' whereas lower case 'state' mean condition or the government in general. Un-f-believable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRM20
More bad examples. You would prohibit Schmoe from voting by mail, even though he has to work through all of the voting hours on Election Day.
Yes, I would. Because he has no good justification. But, in negotiation, I am willing to compromise that if anyone want to vote absentee, aka by mail, the request must come from the person, and not unsolicited, and the request cannot be automatically renewed. For those with physical disabilities, such as seniors, absentee ballots can be permanent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRM20
Your logic would prohibit someone who turns 18 a week before election day from voting. That's ridiculous. Your USAF experience is irrelevant to denying an 18 year old the right to vote because you don't think they should be registered before their 18th birthday.
No, my life as an example is not irrelevant.
Am an emigre, not just an immigrant, to the US. An immigrant is temporary, meaning he has no intention of making his move to the US permanent in every sense, whereas, an emigre is someone readied to abandon all political ties to his birth country. Emigres like myself faces many obstacles in settling into the US, from cultural to institutional, but we presses on because that citizenship is valuable to us. We will work with system, flawed and often inefficient, to get what we want. Then when I was active duty, I knew many service members who could not vote because of bad timing. Officers and enlisted, up and down the ranks. When we were in Iraq and Afghanistan, do you think everyone voted? The answer is 'NO'. The USS Nimitz will not stop its deployment because of elections. Neither will the Army in sending the 10th Mountain to somewhere. Neither will the Marines in issuing PCS orders to a group of fresh Marines out of basic. Life in the military continues. But no one cried 'voter suppression'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRM20
ERIC is a data sharing and comparison tool to identify potential issues. It is up to the states to use that information as they see fit.
Yes, YOU gave that generic answered already. It shows the weakness of ERIC and how you are trying to save it.
Again, let us say ERIC flagged...
1- John Doe in Virginia
2- John Doe in Maryland
3- John Doe in SSN-DECEASED
For starter, it is NOT ILLEGAL to be registered to vote in more than one states. I was in such a condition when I moved from ID to UT. What is illegal is CASTING ballots in more than one states. So unless/until John Doe do something, there is nothing VA and MD can do to John Doe. Virginia and Maryland cannot or should not remove John Doe from its voter registration data unless there are definite proof of fraud. Obviously, no one should be registered in more than one state, but because society have always been mobile, even more so today, we cannot automatically assume one or the other, so in default, VA and MD will leave John Doe alone unless/until a law is broken. So already, there is a weakness in the entire voter data sharing in concept, not just with ERIC in practice.
Second, there is no requirement for both states to remove John Doe from their voter registration data WHEN there is a flag that John Doe is deceased according to the Social Security Administration database. When YOU said: It is up to the states to use that information as they see fit.. WTF does that mean? What if the bureaucrats did nothing? What if the bureaucrat who is supposed to clean up the voter roll was lazy, went on vacation, got sick? This is the major problem with the current voter data sharing concept: THERE IS NO PENALTY FOR INACTION WHEN THERE IS A VOTER DATA CONFLICT.
As if ERIC is not bad enough, there are COMMERCIAL voter data already in circulation.
The core data in voter files are the publicly available voting records of individuals. Members of the public may be unaware that voting records are public, but campaigns have long had access to them. What has changed is that they are much more accessible in the digital age due to changes in both government policies and the routine practices of the agencies that administer elections. It is simply more efficient for governments to digitize the records necessary for the orderly administration of registration and voting.
Another important benefit of using voter files for sampling is that they contain information about past voting behavior as well as partisan registration or estimates of party affiliation. This information permits a pollster to better target likely voters by including more individuals in the sample who have a proven history of voting in elections similar those of interest to a pollster. Similarly, the inclusion of measures of modeled party identification helps pollsters to draw samples that reflect the population of interest, whether it is all registered voters or those who have a high propensity for voting.
Commercial voter files can be used to describe political engagement and affiliation among almost any group of individuals, as long as their names and locations are publicly available. Political scientist Eitan Hersh and his colleagues have used voter files to describe the political characteristics of professionals such as physicians, members of the clergy and even married couples.
ERIC is NOT a government entity even though it is used by various state governments. But because ERIC is relied upon by some state governments, partisans can use its data to correlate what they have in order to target their campaigns more accurately.
Idealist: I have an idea X.
Engineer: Great, here are the issues in application.
Idealist: Mmm...Uhmm...Ahh...Errr...
That is YOU: The Idealist.
Inter-states voter data sharing is a BAD idea. The burden should be on state governments to maintain their own voter data registration and bear accountability for voter frauds. But again, individual responsibility is not what the Left want.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRM20
You don't know me or have any idea what I know or don't know., I've spent most of the last 40 years working with data. I would hazard a guess that I have forgotten more about data than you ever knew. CSV is a terrible format that is used because that's all the system will provide. XML and JSON are far better, since they include a means to validate data.
I am not sure why you included a link to an RPG data type page, but that is utterly irrelevant to this discussion.
Yeah...Sure you do. If you truly had that yrs of experience, you would not have been so casual about the fact that in ERIC there is no requirement for a common data format. I brought up the csv format just to illustrate how flawed ERIC is. There is nothing inherently wrong with the csv format. It is simple and the data easily extractable. Then why is there no agreement among the ERIC members to use csv or any other format?
You have 50 states or 50 inputs. Can we build a code base to deal with all known data formats? Absolutely. Then why have ERIC not done it? Maybe someone had the smarter idea that instead of making that code base unnecessarily complex, why not just enforce a common data format to all 50 inputs? But probably the guy was fired for having common sense in having individual responsibility to all 50 states.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRM20
There will always be issues with voter registration data. That's inherent to the nature of the data and the movement of people from one place to another.
All the more reasons to NOT share voter data registration and put the burden of accountability to the states.
This is getting pedantic. But if you want to go there, upper case 'State' is when it is attached to a proper noun such as 'State of California' whereas lower case 'state' mean condition or the government in general. Un-f-believable.
Yes, I would. Because he has no good justification. But, in negotiation, I am willing to compromise that if anyone want to vote absentee, aka by mail, the request must come from the person, and not unsolicited, and the request cannot be automatically renewed. For those with physical disabilities, such as seniors, absentee ballots can be permanent.
No, my life as an example is not irrelevant.
Am an emigre, not just an immigrant, to the US. An immigrant is temporary, meaning he has no intention of making his move to the US permanent in every sense, whereas, an emigre is someone readied to abandon all political ties to his birth country. Emigres like myself faces many obstacles in settling into the US, from cultural to institutional, but we presses on because that citizenship is valuable to us. We will work with system, flawed and often inefficient, to get what we want. Then when I was active duty, I knew many service members who could not vote because of bad timing. Officers and enlisted, up and down the ranks. When we were in Iraq and Afghanistan, do you think everyone voted? The answer is 'NO'. The USS Nimitz will not stop its deployment because of elections. Neither will the Army in sending the 10th Mountain to somewhere. Neither will the Marines in issuing PCS orders to a group of fresh Marines out of basic. Life in the military continues. But no one cried 'voter suppression'.
Yes, YOU gave that generic answered already. It shows the weakness of ERIC and how you are trying to save it.
Again, let us say ERIC flagged...
1- John Doe in Virginia
2- John Doe in Maryland
3- John Doe in SSN-DECEASED
For starter, it is NOT ILLEGAL to be registered to vote in more than one states. I was in such a condition when I moved from ID to UT. What is illegal is CASTING ballots in more than one states. So unless/until John Doe do something, there is nothing VA and MD can do to John Doe. Virginia and Maryland cannot or should not remove John Doe from its voter registration data unless there are definite proof of fraud. Obviously, no one should be registered in more than one state, but because society have always been mobile, even more so today, we cannot automatically assume one or the other, so in default, VA and MD will leave John Doe alone unless/until a law is broken. So already, there is a weakness in the entire voter data sharing in concept, not just with ERIC in practice.
Second, there is no requirement for both states to remove John Doe from their voter registration data WHEN there is a flag that John Doe is deceased according to the Social Security Administration database. When YOU said: It is up to the states to use that information as they see fit.. WTF does that mean? What if the bureaucrats did nothing? What if the bureaucrat who is supposed to clean up the voter roll was lazy, went on vacation, got sick? This is the major problem with the current voter data sharing concept: THERE IS NO PENALTY FOR INACTION WHEN THERE IS A VOTER DATA CONFLICT.
As if ERIC is not bad enough, there are COMMERCIAL voter data already in circulation.
The core data in voter files are the publicly available voting records of individuals. Members of the public may be unaware that voting records are public, but campaigns have long had access to them. What has changed is that they are much more accessible in the digital age due to changes in both government policies and the routine practices of the agencies that administer elections. It is simply more efficient for governments to digitize the records necessary for the orderly administration of registration and voting.
Another important benefit of using voter files for sampling is that they contain information about past voting behavior as well as partisan registration or estimates of party affiliation. This information permits a pollster to better target likely voters by including more individuals in the sample who have a proven history of voting in elections similar those of interest to a pollster. Similarly, the inclusion of measures of modeled party identification helps pollsters to draw samples that reflect the population of interest, whether it is all registered voters or those who have a high propensity for voting.
Commercial voter files can be used to describe political engagement and affiliation among almost any group of individuals, as long as their names and locations are publicly available. Political scientist Eitan Hersh and his colleagues have used voter files to describe the political characteristics of professionals such as physicians, members of the clergy and even married couples.
ERIC is NOT a government entity even though it is used by various state governments. But because ERIC is relied upon by some state governments, partisans can use its data to correlate what they have in order to target their campaigns more accurately.
Idealist: I have an idea X.
Engineer: Great, here are the issues in application.
Idealist: Mmm...Uhmm...Ahh...Errr...
That is YOU: The Idealist.
Inter-states voter data sharing is a BAD idea. The burden should be on state governments to maintain their own voter data registration and bear accountability for voter frauds. But again, individual responsibility is not what the Left want.
Yeah...Sure you do. If you truly had that yrs of experience, you would not have been so casual about the fact that in ERIC there is no requirement for a common data format. I brought up the csv format just to illustrate how flawed ERIC is. There is nothing inherently wrong with the csv format. It is simple and the data easily extractable. Then why is there no agreement among the ERIC members to use csv or any other format?
You have 50 states or 50 inputs. Can we build a code base to deal with all known data formats? Absolutely. Then why have ERIC not done it? Maybe someone had the smarter idea that instead of making that code base unnecessarily complex, why not just enforce a common data format to all 50 inputs? But probably the guy was fired for having common sense in having individual responsibility to all 50 states.
All the more reasons to NOT share voter data registration and put the burden of accountability to the states.
Good post by the way. I would say though I disagree that we should not use a system such as ERIC. It could be one way that we might find people willing to break the law by voting in more then one district. It is especially useful and helpful because it isn't a government agency. Our voting system should be "apolitical" and not benefit one party over the others. That is a question for a different thread about how we could correct some of our issues not covered by voter rolls.
I don't see a problem with that. I also don't see a problem with someone consenting to have the DMV, for instance, send in a voter registration application for someone renewing a driver's license. The prospective voter is in charge, no matter which way s/he decides to register.
Then we should ban automatic voter registration.
I am already PHYSICALLY at the DMV or whatever state government office. So why do I need to have the state automatically tick that box for me?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohiogirl81
There are reasons other than physical hardship to want or need to vote by mail.
Such as? Remember, the reason must be NON-PHYSICAL and beyond your control.
If you are a habitual DUI and lost your driver's license, too bad. That is your problem, not the state.
If you cannot drive for medical reasons, then your absentee ballot will be permanent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohiogirl81
There are an awful lot of people who work 12-hour shifts that coincide with polling hours. A nurse working 7 to 7, for instance, wouldn't be able to get to the polls in time in some states, depending on when the polls open and close.
Fine, we can negotiate to make a federal law/holiday for voting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohiogirl81
Exactly. There's no reason whatsoever to deny registration to a 17-year-old who will turn 18 on or before election day. Other 17-year-olds should not be permitted to register early, however.
Fine, we can negotiate to mirror the Selective Service registration process.
I've voted by mail a bunch of times. It's very secure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko20
Ah yes, you’ve never ever missed or gotten the wrong mail.
[b]There’s a reason you’re not supposed to send cash through the mail.[b]
If your ballot is intercepted, would you know about it? No. So what would you lose? Nothing tangible. But losing cash is tangible. Even an Amazon gift card is more tangible and valuable than a ballot for Trump or Biden.
If your ballot is intercepted, would you know about it? No. So what would you lose? Nothing tangible. But losing cash is tangible. Even an Amazon gift card is more tangible and valuable than a ballot for Trump or Biden.
I would also add one very distinct fact. The envelope is marked as a "Voter's Ballot" and it should be expidited to it's destination. It is something I have seen when I voted several times overseas.
Any calls to end 'Mail-in ballots" should rethink this argument. If you take it away then people like soldiers and contractors that work and live overseas would not be allowed to vote unless they travelled back to home district. Take away one right and it is a slippery slope to end it all.
I would say though I disagree that we should not use a system such as ERIC. It could be one way that we might find people willing to break the law by voting in more then one district. It is especially useful and helpful because it isn't a government agency. Our voting system should be "apolitical" and not benefit one party over the others. That is a question for a different thread about how we could correct some of our issues not covered by voter rolls.
Again, let us say ERIC flagged...
1- John Doe in Virginia
2- John Doe in Maryland
For now, forget about ERIC. Let us say that neither VA nor MD are ERIC members.
How do I register to vote in VA or in any state for that matter? Usually, you must show some proof of residence like a driver's license or rent/mortgage.
So if John Doe want to register in both states, he must go thru whatever actions required by each state. The fact that John Doe must do those actions means statistically speaking, his ballots in VA and MD are insignificant. It means in order to affect an election, literally thousands of people must be in on the plan.
So in order to weaken the process, we must implement policies as no ID, unsolicited absentee ballots, third party handling of the ballots, sharing voter data, racially profile voters, and even non-citizens voting as the Democrats argued. We do anything possible to overwhelm each state regarding their voter registration databases. Illegal immigrants using citizens SSN or even full ID. We do whatever we can to open up the opportunities for voter frauds.
If ERIC is used and all 50 states are members, now each state must respond to every potential fraud whenever ERIC flagged, which will be everyday. If an SSN is in three or more states, do all three states remove the voter from their databases? Currently, only 1/2 states are members.
What Role Does Federal Law Play in List Maintenance?
It requires states to conduct list maintenance in a uniform and nondiscriminatory manner in compliance with the Voting Rights Act and prohibits the conduct of list maintenance verification activities within 90 days of an election.
See the highlighted? Federal law prohibit any maintenance on the voter registration database within 90 days of an election, so if John Doe want to commit voter fraud, with this knowledge, he can register to vote in more than one states and once his ballots (plural) are tabulated, the fraud cannot be undone.
The intention is to prevent partisan manipulation of voter registration databases within 90 days of an election, but the fact that it is NOT ILLEGAL to be registered to vote in multiple states create the gap for voter fraud, if the timing is right.
So now, let us make it easier to commit voter fraud by sending UNSOLICITED absentee ballots all across the country, and if anyone object even on purely technical grounds, shame them by the charge of 'voter suppression'.
There has never been a mass fraud case of mail-in votes, and never will be because there are safeguards for that. The "very real dangers" are all imaginary cruft to justify draconian republican voter suppression.
Mass fraud case? Voter suppression? your exaggeration deflection is noted. We are talking about the fact that no chain of custody, which is the case with mail-in ballots, opens the door to vote stealing and government perpetrated election fraud.
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