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All agreed, and can you elaborate on the bolded? I assume you're talking about AP exams?
No, mainly the ACT/SAT, but the AP exams have also been made easier over time.
And my axe grind is this - in the 1970s-80s, the average public school GPA:ACT/SAT score ratio was higher than it is now.
By this I mean, if you had a 3.5 GPA in 1980, chances are good that the ACT was 26+ (of 36 max) and the SAT was like 1200+ (of 1600 max). In the last 10-12 years, I have tutored entirely too many 4.0 students with 17-19 ACT scores and 750-900 SAT scores. Those tests have both become easier over time, but receive increasing criticism every year for being "culturally biased" or "unfair measures of subject mastery" or whatever in an effort to shift blame away from the educational system for declining scores in the era of obvious grade inflation and "everyone graduates no matter what" meritorious advancement based on age and nothing else.
On this forum, in discussions with parents, teachers and random other people, I'd say the "school is hard and tests are unfair" crowd outnumbers traditional "subject mastery rules" folks by at least 20 to 1. That sad fact of our culture is EXACTLY why our educational system is rotten to its core, because we have all decided as a culture that school is hard, expectations are unfair, subject mastery is cruel and unusual punishment, etc.
The ACT/SAT are just symptoms, but since I tutor those, I see that particular symptom more than most.
No, mainly the ACT/SAT, but the AP exams have also been made easier over time.
And my axe grind is this - in the 1970s-80s, the average public school GPA:ACT/SAT score ratio was higher than it is now.
By this I mean, if you had a 3.5 GPA in 1980, chances are good that the ACT was 26+ (of 36 max) and the SAT was like 1200+ (of 1600 max). In the last 10-12 years, I have tutored entirely too many 4.0 students with 17-19 ACT scores and 750-900 SAT scores. Those tests have both become easier over time, but receive increasing criticism every year for being "culturally biased" or "unfair measures of subject mastery" or whatever in an effort to shift blame away from the educational system for declining scores in the era of obvious grade inflation and "everyone graduates no matter what" meritorious advancement based on age and nothing else.
On this forum, in discussions with parents, teachers and random other people, I'd say the "school is hard and tests are unfair" crowd outnumbers traditional "subject mastery rules" folks by at least 20 to 1. That sad fact of our culture is EXACTLY why our educational system is rotten to its core, because we have all decided as a culture that school is hard, expectations are unfair, subject mastery is cruel and unusual punishment, etc.
The ACT/SAT are just symptoms, but since I tutor those, I see that particular symptom more than most.
General thoughts.
1. I don't have any real issue(s) with SAT and ACT scores being re-centered over time. At the crotch of the matter admissions offices need to compare college leaning HS Jr.s and Sr.s against age peers. Comparing little Jimmy graduating in 2024 with some rando who graduated in 1971 is less important - although generally doable. Also.....for good or for bad the SAT used to be much more of an IQ proxy than today. Early SAT tests were in fact IQ tests.
2. Your points about high school grade inflation are right on the money. The ACT people issued an excellent data driven report about HS grade inflation a couple of years ago. I'll try to find it.
2.1. People running down SAT and ACT as being culturally biased are full of beans and everyone with a shred of contextual understanding and honesty acknowledges that while no test is culturally perfect claims that educational minorities are cheated out of meaningful points is nonsense.
3. A buddy was the chief diversity officer at a big midwestern university for a long time. This guy made the point years ago that applicants with very high GPA and low test score were a red flag.
4. Broadly speaking, it appears we've become so rich, fat and lazy that we've lost our ability to scramble or to expect much from our kids. As examples we don't produce enough STEM ready HS-then-college grads to ultimately fill out medical school residencies. So we import 28% of our doctors and around 35% of our medical researchers.
It's an appalling failure and soft on education parents a complaint left leaning press and equity-police are all to blame.
The quality of public education in the US varies WILDLY across the country.
Most of the worst ones are in areas where most of the best students are skimmed off for magnet schools or the parents do whatever is in their power to educate them elsewhere.
My kids went to great public schools, tested well, got great STEM degrees etc. etc.
1. I don't have any real issue(s) with SAT and ACT scores being re-centered over time. At the crotch of the matter admissions offices need to compare college leaning HS Jr.s and Sr.s against age peers. Comparing little Jimmy graduating in 2024 with some rando who graduated in 1971 is less important - although generally doable. Also.....for good or for bad the SAT used to be much more of an IQ proxy than today. Early SAT tests were in fact IQ tests.
I wasn't suggesting we rate the 2024 student against the 1974 student on their SAT. I was simply making the comparison that the GPA:SAT ratio was getting observably worse, which is not an indictment of the student, but rather an indictment on the lie that is the modern education system where you can trip and fall over a 4.0 high school GPA, even though your reading, English and math skills are ~8th grade average.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_
2. Your points about high school grade inflation are right on the money. The ACT people issued an excellent data driven report about HS grade inflation a couple of years ago. I'll try to find it.
I'd like to see the ACT report. I have been raging against this machine for the longest time. LOL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_
2.1. People running down SAT and ACT as being culturally biased are full of beans and everyone with a shred of contextual understanding and honesty acknowledges that while no test is culturally perfect claims that educational minorities are cheated out of meaningful points is nonsense.
Thing is, from the "ACT/SAT are culturally biased" as the excuse for falling board scores, we get the "math/science/English/grammar is racist" excuse for falling state requirement scores. The refrain goes "change the test!!" instead of "teach the student!!"
Again, I rage against the machine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_
3. A buddy was the chief diversity officer at a big midwestern university for a long time. This guy made the point years ago that applicants with very high GPA and low test score were a red flag.
Yup. Such a clear indicator of grade inflation and easy curricula, and also of students being in no way prepared for college.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_
4. Broadly speaking, it appears we've become so rich, fat and lazy that we've lost our ability to scramble or to expect much from our kids. As examples we don't produce enough STEM ready HS-then-college grads to ultimately fill out medical school residencies. So we import 28% of our doctors and around 35% of our medical researchers.
And engineers, scientists, etc. If the school behind any occupational specialty is hard, look for 25-40% immigrant populations in those specialties. We suck at educating STEM. Like galactic levels of suck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_
It's an appalling failure and soft on education parents a complaint left leaning press and equity-police are all to blame.
100% this. Soft on education is a cultural rot that infects every other aspect of American decline, and will later be described as historians cataloging the fall of our empire as one of the top 3 reasons said fall was both obvious and inevitable.
The quality of public education in the US varies WILDLY across the country.
Most of the worst ones are in areas where most of the best students are skimmed off for magnet schools or the parents do whatever is in their power to educate them elsewhere.
My kids went to great public schools, tested well, got great STEM degrees etc. etc.
Excellent observation.
I'm sitting in a hotel lobby in North Dallas. 10-12 miles south sits a collection of some of the worst public high schools in the nation. Within a ~3 miles circle an amazing collection of private schools. And 10-12 miles north some of the best public schools in the country.
I wasn't suggesting we rate the 2024 student against the 1974 student on their SAT. I was simply making the comparison that the GPA:SAT ratio was getting observably worse, which is not an indictment of the student, but rather an indictment on the lie that is the modern education system where you can trip and fall over a 4.0 high school GPA, even though your reading, English and math skills are ~8th grade average.
I'd like to see the ACT report. I have been raging against this machine for the longest time. LOL.
Thing is, from the "ACT/SAT are culturally biased" as the excuse for falling board scores, we get the "math/science/English/grammar is racist" excuse for falling state requirement scores. The refrain goes "change the test!!" instead of "teach the student!!"
Again, I rage against the machine.
Yup. Such a clear indicator of grade inflation and easy curricula, and also of students being in no way prepared for college.
And engineers, scientists, etc. If the school behind any occupational specialty is hard, look for 25-40% immigrant populations in those specialties. We suck at educating STEM. Like galactic levels of suck.
100% this. Soft on education is a cultural rot that infects every other aspect of American decline, and will later be described as historians cataloging the fall of our empire as one of the top 3 reasons said fall was both obvious and inevitable.
As noted in the education forum more and more colleges are again requiring SAT and ACT as grades simply do not convey adequate resolution for admission and placement.
Importing low IQ people into the US and the destruction of the nuclear family.
But at least all of our billionaires are very happy about their massive increase in wealth. Not to mention, they have plenty of servants to satisfy anything they want.
I'm sitting in a hotel lobby in North Dallas. 10-12 miles south sits a collection of some of the worst public high schools in the nation. Within a ~3 miles circle an amazing collection of private schools. And 10-12 miles north some of the best public schools in the country.
That's the way it is with any statement. It's a blanket but doesn't get down to the granular level or disaggregate any data.
Someone says this or that state has a high illiteracy/teen pregnancy rate/murder rate/whatever and it's never stated that well, those issues are in one or another population cohort or that one large city skews the numbers for the entire state.
An example would be my state, Maryland, is often listed as one of the most dangerous states or has one of the highest incidences of STDs in the US, usually Top 10 or 12 for both. What isn't mentioned is that the state has a relatively small population and those negative numbers are driven by just two large jurisdictions plus one smaller one. In most of the rest of the state most jurisdictions will go years between having a murder and have a handful of recorded STD cases a year.
It's the same with education, one or two large systems drag the numbers down for the entire state in much of the country.
Teachers are important to society, but not when many of them are teaching worthless subjects. Math, reading, writing, hisotry, and PE. That's it, that's all you need. Gender studies, sociology, philosophy, kinesiology, and many other silly subjects created by woke folks just doesn't work.
When I got my degree I immediately forgot 99% of what I learned because a lot of it were just mandatory electives so someone could be gainfully employed.
Socrates was so woke that he was forced to drink poison by those he offended.
I spent only my own money on my college studies. I still remember much of what I learned because I wanted to get what I paid for--an education. Gainful employment was what I wanted along with my education, but my primary reason for becoming educated was to increase my life's knowledge and skills.
Too bad you didn't choose to learn something you would want to know for your whole life. I hope you love your employment.
What, in your opinion, is the reason for the the disaster the U.S. Educational system has become?
It's a drain on taxpayers, run by greedy union leaders, and teaches woke fantasies, not facts.
The most important education is the one you lead yourself. In addition to the woke garbage, school has always been terrible at helping kids find direction or focus in their lives. Biggest joke in my high school, as it was in others, was the guidance counselor.
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