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In your paranoid mind apparently the rest of the world is all against the Jews. I don't believe this is so, but obviously we are not going to come to an agreement about that.
Again, you exhibit precisely the sort of thinking I was talking about. According to you, 2000 years of murder, pogroms, segregation and extermination was nothing -- none of that indicates the world has got anything against the Jews.
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Originally Posted by bily4
From my perspective most of the world is just taking the carnage at face value.
Yes. Unless the carnage is perpetrated against Jews, in which case most of the world takes it as nothing.
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Originally Posted by bily4
You insist on justifying it because of the Holocaust.
I never said it's justified -- I said that what's happening has everything to do with the Holocaust.
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Originally Posted by bily4
I think that is a cheap and cowardly way out of facing what you are doing, and the dehumanization of the Palestinians you are murdering makes you not not so much different than the the dehumanization of the Jews and Catholics and gays and gypsies back in the day, does it.
I am murdering no one -- but thanks for dehumanizing me with the accusation. By the way, while I've made it clear that I am Jew, I never said I was an Israeli. Yet on the basis of the fact that I am Jewish, you have accused me of murder. I often hear about distinguishing between Jews and Israelis -- but just as often, I come across slip-ups like this by people who claim to make the distinction.
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Originally Posted by bily4
And please...get off your high horse. I am a vet and have seen conflict and have brothers in Iraq and Afghanistan today. (Thanks for the help in those conflicts by the way. Not.) Israelis are not the only people in the world that have suffered or experienced hardship, although you obviously think you are very special and unique and noboby else can possibly understand you.
Uhm, you get off your high horse. First, you lectured me on how I should be thankful to your ancestors for "helping" get rid of Hitler -- assuming, unbelievably, that my family did not actually fight Hitler. You were wrong. Now you are attempting to do it again. When you say "thanks not" for help with conflict in Iraq in Afghanistan -- do you mean me personally or Jews? I am not in the military -- you got me there. But then, I am helping with those conflicts. I mean, if we all dropped what we were doing and went into the military, who would fund it? And I know Jews who are in the military, so again, you put your foot in it. Now, I hate to point out the obvious, but your own words show that you don't understand me. I don't know whether it's because I am special and unique, but I suspect it's because that's how you view me, though you may deny it. I want precisely the opposite of what you are trying to ascribe to me: I want Jews and Israelis to be treated as not special or unique, but that they should enjoy the same rights and privileges that other people take for granted. I never said that Israelis are the only people in the world that have suffered or experienced hardship -- only that it is anti-semitism to believe that Jews (or substitute code word here) must always suffer hardship and depend on others to either allow them to exist, or to rescue them if the feel like, but never defend themselves against an attack. Which seems to be the prevailing opinion today.
First comments I have seen from the Obama folks, I'm always looking for indications of new administration sentiments and directions:
Mrs. Clinton said America must recognize Israel’s right to defend itself from Hamas rockets but cannot ignore the suffering of Palestinians citizens, as well as Israelis. “Real security for Israel, normal and positive relations with its neighbors” as well as genuine security for Palestinians must continue to be America’s ideal, she said.
I also found this statement interesting, I wonder what it means in terms of actions:
After saying that America would exhaustively pursue diplomacy in dealing with Iran, and that “no option is off the table,” Mrs. Clinton said the Obama administration would indeed hold it “unacceptable” for Iran to join the ranks of those countries with nuclear arms. “That is our premise,” she said.
It is clear that this movie is cast and produce to support Israeli zionism propaganda...the steps of this child acted without any fear reactions.. reflected the degree of this tape reality
It is clear that this movie is cast and produce to support Israeli zionism propaganda...the steps of this child acted without any fear reactions.. reflected the degree of this tape reality
Just because it comes from a pro-Israeli point of view doesn't necessarily mean it is propaganda. Can't Israeli's be critical of anything without it being "propaganda"?
Certainly, a criticism of Israeli policies is not by definition anti-semitism. But let's make one thing clear: quite often, criticism of Israel is motivated by anti-semitism, and it is precisely these critics who pre-emptively invoke the "anti-semitism card" card. These are critics who cannot have a "decent argument", because anyone who disagrees with them is immediately shot down as an "anti-semitism card player", even if the subject of anti-semitism was never brought up in the first place. This is the way in which anti-semites inoculate themselves against any blame. Suffice it to say, merely replacing the word "Jew" with "Zionist" or "Israeli" does not cleanse a classical anti-semitic canard of its anti-semitism.
It would be naive to assume that the ferocious judeophobia that fueled the Holocaust simply evaporated after World War II. It sought new, more legitimate-looking forms, and found one in Israel-bashing. Anti-semitism is what inspires the belief that in any conflict involving Jews, the only morally acceptable position for Jews is to lie down and die without putting up a fight (unless a magnanimous third party chooses to ride in on a white horse and rescue them). Anti-semitism is what inspires people to lecture Jews on how they had "legitimacy" and "the world's sympathy" after the Holocaust -- the obvious implication being that Jews can't have any legitimacy unless they accept the status of perpetual victimhood and get exterminated on a regular basis. Anti-semitism is what inspires the denial of Jews' right to a homeland and national self-determination -- condemning them to the status of a "tolerated" minority forever and for all time. Anti-semitism is what drives all that screeching about Jews being a "chosen people" without the least idea (or, more often, invoking deliberate distortions) of Judaism's concept of "chosenness". Anti-semitism is what inspires the belief that Jews should just do their self-deprecating humor thing a la Mel Brooks but stay out of public life; anti-semites often profess an appreciation for various attributes of Jewish ambiance, while deploring the existence of Jews themselves (and by the way, "exoticization", the desire to kill and mummify a culture, to reduce it to meaningless ornaments, cleansed of actual people, is not unique to anti-semitism). Hatred of Jews is what inspires twisted arguments that hating Jews is not "anti-semitism" because Jews supposedly aren't "semites" -- despite the fact that Jew-haters themselves invented the term in an effort to provide a "scientific" basis for their prejudices, and the obvious implication being that it's okay to hate Jews. Anti-semitism is what inspires the arguments that Jews lived "in harmony" under Muslim domination -- again, the implication being that Jews must consent to live as a "tolerated" minority, second-class citizens, paying onerous taxes just for being Jews. Anti-semitism is what inspires the attitude that while the plight of Palestinian refugees is a dark chapter in the history of the Middle East, Jewish refugees, persecuted in and ultimately chased out of Middle-Eastern countries is a subject that can simply be ignored -- the unspoken principle being that it's "normal" for Jews to be persecuted, and therefore it's nothing to be outraged about. Anti-semitism is what inspires that belief that it was okay for Israel's neighbors to attack it militarily, but it was wrong for Israel to fight back -- because, again, Jews have a special role in life of always being victims, never victors. Anti-semites often slam Jews for "pretending to be victims"; but it is precisely these anti-semites who operate on the assumption that Jews should be victims under all circumstances, and are to be condemned if they reject that role. The "solutions" that anti-semites propose regarding Israel invariably involve Israelis accepting victimization without protest and the "world community" possibly interfering to save them if it so chooses. No reasonable person would ever accept such dictates. Why should Israelis?
I would also address the often-made comment about how Israelis/Jews don't care about the world opinion and its outrage about the plight of the Palestinians. Obviously, we are all individuals, and I can't speak for anyone else, but I have to ask: Where was the world opinion when Jews were being exterminated? Where was the world opinion when people were loaded into cattle cars, gassed en masse, subjected to gruesome pseudo-scientific experiments, and had their ashes used for fertilizer? Where was everyone's righteous outrage then, huh? What came afterwards was but crocodile tears, and the hostility to Jews today, at least in Europe, is fueled to a large extent by guilt. Israel is a reminder to many Europeans of their atrocities against Jews -- which perfectly explains their desire to see Israel crushed.
I thought pride was a deadly sin in Christianity, but what do I know. In any event, I find it curious that you would ask a Jew whether he knows where you are going when you leave this earth. You don't know much about Judaism, do you? In Judaism, all nations have a place in the World to Come, not just Jews; Judaism does not condemn people to hell for not being Jewish. Your religion, on the other hand -- doesn't it postulate that all those Jewish children who got gassed at Treblinka wound up in hell because they didn't accept Jesus? Ahem. I think you would agree a this point, it's best to leave religion out of it.
Im not going to disect your passage as you did mine which was not directed to you in the first place.
I have never said anything about Jewish Nazis so I don't know who you were directing that at.
And I'll make it clear to you. Being critical of government policies does not mean that you hate a group of Human beings. That is not who I am and I've never protested to be.
I honestly do regret the fact that Israeli children have died. Yes. In the same I am regretting that 240 children have died plus 4000 have been wounded. Please give me the number of children that have died in Israel due to the rockets? Maybe that will give me an understanding of both sides better.
No one ever said that you were victims, again I am against the policies and not the people! Please...its very simple to understand that. I have already given an analogy to that.
Also I believe that the world was on the side of the Jews when the Holocaust happened and you still get priviliges to this day because of it. People have worked hard so that another genocide like that would never happen again. Yes, it was an atrocitiy, just like the slaughter of children in Palestine is today. Where is your sympathy or even empathy for these children? Ha, I have seen on here many vile things hurddle towards these children.
People keep claiming Hamas is hiding behind the womwn and children, well I guess that means that for every Hamas leader that dies, the children and women who die are worth it becuas eat least you got somebody from Hamas. Give me a break!
And ma'am you don't have to tell me to leave religion out of it. Clearly you didn't read the whole thread and how I needed to be prayed for and all this other BS. I didn't bring religion into it, your friend did. So attacking me with your rhetoric simply isn't working.
Killing people is wrong period and I don't care what the hell you call me, you know it and so do I.
To begin with, you thought wrong. Pride is not deadly sin in the religion of Christianity as the seven deadly sins were from the works of Dante Alighieri in the 15th century based loosely upon earlier works by Pope Gregory the Great in the 6th century and thought to originate with book of Proverbs (6:16-19) but the book of Proverbs makes no mention of pride.
*Bow* I stand corrected. Then there is nothing wrong with claiming "I am going to heaven, and you are going to hell".
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Originally Posted by TnHilltopper
From the Tanakh, Devarim, or the book of Deuteronomy 20:16-18? Although this was a commandment from God himself as he was known to make appearances all over the Middle East back in those days, what a hoot.
Yes, the Fertile Crescent was a very peaceful place prior to, say, 500 BC. Note, I didn't bring up the subject of religious superiority. The fact remains that under the prevailing Christian doctrine, most of Holocaust victims are in hell and most of their tormentors are in heaven.
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Originally Posted by TnHilltopper
One of my favorites from the Talmud, (my copy is English since I don't read Hebrew which is probably blaspheme) so pardon if I can't remember if it was from the Mishnah or the Gemara but it sounds very much like something from the Mishnah of Sanhedrin. (I'll try to remember the source passage)
“Who can protest an injustice but does not is an accomplice to the act”
Most people will define an "injustice" selectively -- and that includes most pro-Palestinian supporters here, as well.
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Originally Posted by TnHilltopper
However, these fairytales and those written by Dante Alighieri are little more than teaching tools, much like Aesop but with an R rating, and are not really all that relevant to this discussion unless were trying to lay guilt on an individual under the pretext of the abandonment their principles or faith?
No, they are not all that relevant. But an individual who invokes his faith to claim that he is going to heaven while someone who disagrees with him is going to hell does put the principles of that faith in controversy.
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Originally Posted by TnHilltopper
The there is the brand of antisemitism in which Jews don't like someone. This type of antisemitism is what Finkelstein, Shahak, and Chomsky have noted as serving the purposes of actually creating antisemitism where none existed before while at the same time deflecting arguments with rudimentary name calling, a tactic used by those without argument. Again, I realize these men have been marginalized today with their rather harsh criticism's of Israel and Jews alike, but unlike the past in Rabbinical-Talmudic tradition of healthy debate of oppositional views, these people are depicted as self-hating Jews or worse. I figure it is best to let the individual decide for themselves.
"Jews don't like someone"? These men are marginalized for their "harsh criticisms of Jews"? Huh. And there was something else you said that was somewhat ambiguous -- you mentioned how those individuals "haven't always disagreed with actions and politics of Israel or the Jewish people themselves." (Emphasis added.) I'm not sure whether that last part refers to just "the Jewish people" or "the actions and politics of the Jewish people"; if it's the latter, I find it curious. I believe there are other kinds of anti-semitism -- though, of course, since I don't have those men's publicity or academic credentials, it really doesn't matter what I believe -- but any kind of anti-semitism necessarily entails an assumption that Jews have a collective hive mind. Israel is a state; it can be described in terms of its politics, policies and actions. Jews are a group of individuals, and thus saying that Jews collectively have policies, actions and politics is absurd. It's not quite anti-semitism yet, but it's certainly a precursor. Furthermore, there are certainly those of us who respond to an argument with a gratuitous accusation of anti-semitism; but there are also plenty of anti-semites who preemptively complain about "the anti-semitism card" in order to validate arguments that are clearly anti-semitic.
Finally, it is quite possible for a Jew to be a self-hating anti-semite. This is one of the consequences of Jews' historical experience, particularly in Europe. Many Jews revolt against what they see as being defined by historic victimhood. One of the ways to come to terms with it is to believe that Jews deserved it.
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Originally Posted by TnHilltopper
I get the impression from the manner in which you stated this that 1000 years in the future, there will be some Jew holding someone by the collar asking, "where was your outrage then huh"! I don't know of a single person in my entire life that does not think what took place in WWII was a horrifying tragedy, but if this one horrific event is going to be the pretext to justification for a variety of actions, then it is wrong to do so. Should I then cry in outrage to the modern Italians for enslaving my Celtic ancestors during the Roman occupation of Western Europe? Where does one draw the line of responsibility for past atrocity? Should I bear responsibility if my great, great, great, great grandfather owned a slave?
You took my words out of context. I wasn't referring to the world's inaction as a justification for wrongdoing -- I was referring to it as evidence of hypocrisy. I just can't get over the fact that everyone was okay with the Holocaust while it was in progress, and afterwards, everyone thinking it was a "horrifying tragedy" somehow makes it okay. If it was a "horrifying tragedy", why didn't anyone speak out against it while it was happening? Why did countries block refugees, why didn't the Allies bomb the gas chambers or the rails leading to them? Why the flip-flopping, what changed to make everyone sympathize with Jews after the fact? The only explanation I can come up with is that in the view of many (if not most), Jews simply fulfilled their obligatory role of being slaughtered. The Gypsies, too.
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Originally Posted by TnHilltopper
However, I'm glad that you pointed out that "Semite" or "Semitic" is a creation of the Jew haters and not really derived from the word Shem or son of Noah, Shem. All those years of religious study and I'm just now finding this out... and you accuse others of not knowing much about Judaism? Oh my.
I was referring to the term "anti-semitism". Though it may be derived from the word "Semite", the term "anti-semitism" was first embraced by judeophobes as a more scientific-sounding description of their beliefs.
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Originally Posted by TnHilltopper
This entire piece, while articulate and eloquent was little more than an apologist preemptive hit piece that fell just short of referring to gentiles as "Goy". Don't hold back next time, let it all out as I don't hold any of these religious ideologies so am not offended by them, only that they are used as justification or rationalization in the face of logic and reasoned argument.
Whatever. You put words in my mouth, then have the nerve to complain about gratuitous accusations of anti-semitism? By the way, I come from a heavily intermarried family, and Jews, at least American Jews, have over 50% intermarriage rates -- hardly the attitude of people who are prejudiced against gentiles, but this insinuation is so typical.
Also I believe that the world was on the side of the Jews when the Holocaust happened and you still get priviliges to this day because of it.
Really, I get privileges? How curious. I really wasn't aware of any privileges I was enjoying specifically for being Jewish. What privileges do I get, praytell? Also, what does it mean "the world was on the side of Jews when the Holocaust happened"? Clearly, it wasn't on the side of Jews because the Holocaust did happen. Or, you mean, the world was on the side of Jews after the fact? So what, we should be grateful now, for having 6 million of us slaughtered so that the world could be on our side for 10 minutes? Well, forgive me for being a hardened ingrate, but instead of sympathy, I would have much preferred not to have so many of my family massacred; and I would have preferred not to live with the knowledge that even amid our lives of acceptance, equal rights and ordinary, unremarkable existence, we are only a train ride away from the gas chamber, where our former neighbors, co-workers, classmates -- people who smiled at us and sat down with us -- will exterminate us with a scientific precision and industrial efficiency. I really would have preferred this not to be revealed as basic human nature, instead of the world feeling sad about lots of dead Jews. But, your words exemplify what I was talking about -- the belief that Jews don't have legitimacy as individuals or a people unless they get exterminated.
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Originally Posted by LoveMiiorHateMii
I didn't bring religion into it, your friend did. So attacking me with your rhetoric simply isn't working.
But you did suggest, as I understood you to say, that you were going to heaven and "my friend" was going to hell. Those were your words. "My friend" didn't force you to type them.
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Originally Posted by LoveMiiorHateMii
Killing people is wrong period and I don't care what the hell you call me, you know it and so do I.
Of course it's wrong. But the public does have different levels of tolerance for killing depending on the identities involved.
*Bow* I stand corrected. Then there is nothing wrong with claiming "I am going to heaven, and you are going to hell".
Yes, the Fertile Crescent was a very peaceful place prior to, say, 500 BC. Note, I didn't bring up the subject of religious superiority. The fact remains that under the prevailing Christian doctrine, most of Holocaust victims are in hell and most of their tormentors are in heaven.
I don't hold such archaic belief structures as my own but I have read much on this as well as other religious texts and will let you all sort out your differences in the classroom or on the battlefield, whichever you all prefer.
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Most people will define an "injustice" selectively -- and that includes most pro-Palestinian supporters here, as well.
Yeah, that is just one of those things about religious texts, they are always subjective and can be used in a variety of ways for a variety of purposes.
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No, they are not all that relevant. But an individual who invokes his faith to claim that he is going to heaven while someone who disagrees with him is going to hell does put the principles of that faith in controversy.
See above
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"Jews don't like someone"? These men are marginalized for their "harsh criticisms of Jews"? Huh. And there was something else you said that was somewhat ambiguous -- you mentioned how those individuals "haven't always disagreed with actions and politics of Israel or the Jewish people themselves." (Emphasis added.) I'm not sure whether that last part refers to just "the Jewish people" or "the actions and politics of the Jewish people"; if it's the latter, I find it curious. I believe there are other kinds of anti-semitism -- though, of course, since I don't have those men's publicity or academic credentials, it really doesn't matter what I believe -- but any kind of anti-semitism necessarily entails an assumption that Jews have a collective hive mind. Israel is a state; it can be described in terms of its politics, policies and actions. Jews are a group of individuals, and thus saying that Jews collectively have policies, actions and politics is absurd. It's not quite anti-semitism yet, but it's certainly a precursor. Furthermore, there are certainly those of us who respond to an argument with a gratuitous accusation of anti-semitism; but there are also plenty of anti-semites who preemptively complain about "the anti-semitism card" in order to validate arguments that are clearly anti-semitic.
The irony of such a discussion about the diversity of views among Jews is that when I cite groups like B'tselem, True Torah Jews, Neturei Karta or Not in My Name and other like groups as an example of this diversity in view, I have been accused of antisemitism or simply foolish for pointing out that Jews are not a homogeneous group with a Unitarian view. Which is rather humorous being some of my heritage lay in late 19th century Russia if you catch my drift.
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Finally, it is quite possible for a Jew to be a self-hating anti-semite. This is one of the consequences of Jews' historical experience, particularly in Europe. Many Jews revolt against what they see as being defined by historic victimhood. One of the ways to come to terms with it is to believe that Jews deserved it.
No doubt, but like religious texts, determining what level constitutes a self-hating Jews is just as subjective and dependent upon ones past personal experiences or exposures.
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You took my words out of context. I wasn't referring to the world's inaction as a justification for wrongdoing -- I was referring to it as evidence of hypocrisy. I just can't get over the fact that everyone was okay with the Holocaust while it was in progress, and afterwards, everyone thinking it was a "horrifying tragedy" somehow makes it okay. If it was a "horrifying tragedy", why didn't anyone speak out against it while it was happening? Why did countries block refugees, why didn't the Allies bomb the gas chambers or the rails leading to them? Why the flip-flopping, what changed to make everyone sympathize with Jews after the fact? The only explanation I can come up with is that in the view of many (if not most), Jews simply fulfilled their obligatory role of being slaughtered. The Gypsies, too.
I quoted what you said, if it was out of context, then perhaps it is because due to how the context was presented. Upon your further explanation, I understand the context, but upon first read, that is how it appeared.
I believe it was Orwell who said that "The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.", but as to why those among Western powers did so little, I suspect it is because they didn't believe it. Much of the press was suppressed and propagandized by Nazi Germany and it wasn't until they saw it with their own eyes did they come to believe it.
One of the reasons a free press should be allowed to be witness to such things, don't you agree? I believe I understand Plato's position, "Justice will only exist where those not affected by injustice are filled with the same amount of indignation as those offended".
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I was referring to the term "anti-semitism". Though it may be derived from the word "Semite", the term "anti-semitism" was first embraced by judeophobes as a more scientific-sounding description of their beliefs.
Yet it seems to be a term embraced by all today and used liberally, regardless of its origins.
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Whatever. You put words in my mouth, then have the nerve to complain about gratuitous accusations of anti-semitism? Especially after your collective characterization of Jews, above.
I didn't put anything in your mouth, I only quoted what you said and the manner and context in which you placed your argument. The irony of this is that you are protesting my "collective characterization of Jews" when I was pointing out the diversity of view of Jews in the first place. Does one need to assert some qualitative note before any such argument stating, "not all"?
There is no doubt when reading through this thread that there are antisemitic sentiments, often under guise of a variety of context in an attempt to justify it. By that same note, I see what you called, "victim status" being used just as liberally and it is why I look upon this thread as a discussion barely removed from Lord of the Flies. Each group crying foul over the injustice laid upon them while at the same time in complete denial of the atrocious behavior committed by their own. While I understand the purpose of doing such a thing, I struggle to get my mind around its regressive manner of approach, so thus find it all repugnant and hold it in disdain.
Really, I get privileges? How curious. I really wasn't aware of any privileges I was enjoying specifically for being Jewish. What privileges do I get, praytell? Also, what does it mean "the world was on the side of Jews when the Holocaust happened"? Clearly, it wasn't on the side of Jews because the Holocaust did happen. Or, you mean, the world was on the side of Jews after the fact? So what, we should be grateful now, for having 6 million of us slaughtered so that the world could be on our side for a while? Well, forgive me for being a hardened ingrate, but instead of sympathy, I would have much preferred not to have so many of my family massacred; and I would have preferred not to live with the knowledge that even amid our lives of acceptance, equal rights and ordinary, unremarkable existence, we are only a train ride away from the gas chamber, where our former neighbors, co-workers, classmates -- people who smiled at us and sat down with us -- will exterminate us with a scientific precision and industrial efficiency. I really would have preferred this not to be revealed as basic human nature, instead of the world feeling sad about lots of dead Jews. But, your words exemplify what I was talking about -- the belief that Jews don't have legitimacy as individuals or a people unless they get exterminated.
But you did suggest, as I understood you to say, that you were going to heaven and "my friend" was going to hell. Those were your words. "My friend" didn't force you to type them.
Of course it's wrong. But the public does have different levels of tolerance for killing depending on the identities involved.
Yes, the US has sided with the Israelis since then because it is scared of what might happen to it. We supply the weapons that are being used and their government gets to tell us what to do.
I wasn't born back then so I don't know what was going on during but I do know that a war was fought and many people died for that cause, not just Jews, who unfortunately suffered the most.
Like Hilltopper pointed out though, the press was not allowed in at that time, but after, the world saw what happened and responded accordingly, and I tell you that the same thing is happening in Palestine, no outside reporters are allowed in, we do not know the extent of the devastation and neither do you. So now I ask you, would you have sympathy for those killed their, if it was determined that a genocide happened there or would you turn a blind eye?
And i am sorry for your family, but the same thing happened to my ancestors and daily people tell us to forget...Jews included. I don't look for special privilges because of something that happend so long ago and many black can't even trace their heritage. You are not the only people that have suffered atrocities.
Do you know how many people have died in Darfur? Rwanda? The Congo? Somalia? Native Americans? Armenians? etc.
So by my words as you claim, I think that these people don't have legitimacy as individuals or a people unless they get exterminated. is my belief only specific to Jews?
Your logic is flawed. You are creating hate where there is none and quite frankly you do not know me so unless your a mind reader, then your rhetoric is pointless.
Again you are reading into what I said to your friend too much. But certainly you wouldn't know what I was talking about because you attacked me without reading through the whole situation. I did not invoke faith to tell someone they were going to hell. I was reminding her that she does not need to pray for me because I pray on my own and i know where I stand in my relationship to God. I do not need anyone telling me that I am crazy and that they are going to pray for me. I will say it again, she can keep her prayer.
The last part I bolded because I think that only you think this way by the statements that you have made on this thread.
Last edited by LoveMiiorHateMii; 01-13-2009 at 01:42 PM..
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I often hear about distinguishing between Jews and Israelis -- but just as often, I come across slip-ups like this by people who claim to make the distinction.
