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I wouldn't assume that they were aware of slavery's affect on their wages. And like I mentioned earlier, they were terrified of what would happen when they released 50-80% of the population from forced bondage.
I'm from South Carolina, and they always told us this story to illustrate the hysteria among white southerners about slave uprisings.
Look at it this way. Other board members mentioned how the north had slaves and did dirt too. The reason why many blacks see the south as worse is because the north was on the other side of the war with ending slavery (even if slavery was a bi product of the war), they were on the winning side. So it doesn't matter to blacks that northerners did dirt, at least they helped more with our freedom. So if the farmers and all who did not own slaves help with an uprising to free the slaves, when the civil war did occur, whose side do you think those newly freed slaves would have been on? The north? No. Because southerners would have said, you know if it was up to the north, you still be slaves. Sorry, I don't see how the slaves would have turned on the very white southerners who fought for their freedom. Can you?
That's why it is a struggle for me to view the confederate flag like you do. Envisioning brave men going up against a bad system that oppressed them economically boldly carrying the confederate flag is hard when they felt that their economic freedom was more important than seeing blacks for what they really are - human beings. Wouldn't have been something if they did? If the poor whites or the other 94% fighting against the north had taken on the cause of freeing those more destitute than themselves (the slaves) would not the newly freed slaves have helped the fight the north? They would of had a new ally. History would be so very different now. To me,it seems like they dropped the ball and now years later most people have this view of them.
But you seem to think that only Southern whites saw blacks as less than human beings. When the Constitution itself counted blacks as 2/5 of a person. And the abuse and oppression of black people in the north post Reconstruction was terrible. I think appreciating the Northern Army for its role in ending slavery is appropriate, but idealizing the Northern people as liberators who respected and honored the black people as equals is just ignoring history.
But you seem to think that only Southern whites saw blacks as less than human beings. When the Constitution itself counted blacks as 2/5 of a person. And the abuse and oppression of black people in the north post Reconstruction was terrible. I think appreciating the Northern Army for its role in ending slavery is appropriate, but idealizing the Northern people as liberators who respected and honored the black people as equals is just ignoring history.
Since I'm aware of the northerners doing dirt too, I don't idealize them, but you or some southerners idealize the confederate flag, don't you? All I'm saying is that if 94% of the south fought against slavery first and then went on to fight against the north, then they would be appreciated more too and blacks would have absolutely no problem with the confederate flag because then the flag would have meant something important to all southerners and not just to a part of the south.
Unless your dead ancestors were a part of it, being blunt the way you were is insensitive. The criterion for me is choice vs. force. If you're given a choice to leave your homeland and family behind that's one thing. There is no animosity. Even to this day, I wish I could know where I come from, but I can't because my ancestors weren't even named in the census records so please don't expect me to accept such bluntness. The pain of not knowing who there were, where they come from and what their each of their lives were like runs deep. And who said something about not working together. The southern gentleman is doing an excellent job to bring the country together by tastefully and eloquently explaining what the confederate flag means to him. The reason why I asked about your background is because maybe I can be able to relate to some of the things you say. I mean, you just seem like your kind of talking off the cuff, like you can't relate to anything except from your own perspective. In a discussion, it's good to know where people are coming from and with that blunt comment, it's hard to relate. Do you have an opinion about the real question of this board: the confederate flag?
You may be unaware that this issue is raised at least monthly on this board. I have commented on the same topic numerous times, and my conclusion, since I am non-Southern and caucasian (though mine is an interracial marriage), is that the issue is more complex than simply Stars and Bars = KKK, and that a little broadmindedness on the ambiguities involved is called for. But I stress, repeatedly, that we need to get over reissuing the same old recriminations and rejecting the exepriences and opinions of others out of hand because they are somehow "disqualified" from speaking. The lesson for all of us is that We are all qualified. We are all equal. We are all Americans.
Gee, I'll bet my ancestors wish that Americans would have given them the choice to find out on their own if that statement is true versus being kidnapped or forced to come to America. Then, their descendants would not have such disdain for your question.
"Disdain" all you wish. It'll take you exactly nowhere.
The confederacy was on the wrong side of a war for freedom and liberty, very much similar to how the Third Reich was on the wrong side of a war for freedom and liberty. There might not be direct parallels, but the similarities are sufficient enough to analogize.
So while I respect your right to say it, I cannot and do not respect the substance of your view.
I appreciate your tolerance is hearing my views, and wish it could extend to understanding them. Because to many people who fought for the Confederacy, it was freedom and liberty they were fighting for. They were fighting against an all-encompassing federal government that was growing ever more powerful.
There were abolitionists in the South. They didn't have as much of a voice as the abolitionists in the North because the regions were intrinsically different. The North was already much more urban. Along with denser populations came venues where people could express their political opinions. In the more rural, agrarian society of the South, there were fewer newspapers, and the places where people could speak out, places like churches, were dominated by the rich people who had an economic stake in slavery. You were much more likely to end up in jail or dead if you were an abolitionist in the South. Northern industrialists had an economic reason for funding abolitionist movement, aside from moral concerns. To assume that the majority of Southerners was pro-slavery is a tremendous assumption. It is more likely that the majority of Southerners were anti-slavery or simply indifferent to the plight of the black people. Southerners who were farther inland, who were trying to turn the wilderness into a civilized place, who still felt the dangers of Indian attacks, were not going to be inclined to worry about the morality of keeping slaves. It's not a judgment, it's just people being human.
Since I'm aware of the northerners doing dirt too, I don't idealize them, but you or some southerners idealize the confederate flag, don't you? All I'm saying is that if 94% of the south fought against slavery first and then went on to fight against the north, then they would be appreciated more too and blacks would have absolutely no problem with the confederate flag because then the flag would have meant something important to all southerners and not just to a part of the south.
I think some Southerners romanticize the Civil War and also the flag. But if you want to get down to practicalities, how do you get 94% of a population to do anything? The only way to unite a diverse, and spread-out population, because the South encompassed a vast amount of territory, is to attack it. Like it or not, the Civil War was fought primarily in Southern territory, and Southerners didn't unite over the moral issue over slavery (and neither did the North), they united because they felt they were being invaded by a better-equipped and more numerous enemy. The Confederate flag didn't come about before the Civil War, it issued from it. And the people who died carrying it were Americans, and are deserving of some respect and honor.
Since I'm aware of the northerners doing dirt too, I don't idealize them, but you or some southerners idealize the confederate flag, don't you? All I'm saying is that if 94% of the south fought against slavery first and then went on to fight against the north, then they would be appreciated more too and blacks would have absolutely no problem with the confederate flag because then the flag would have meant something important to all southerners and not just to a part of the south.
Hindsight is 20/20, right?
Also, I was just reading an article disputing the amount of white southerners that owned slaves. That 6% figure I mentioned came from a pro-southern source. A more liberal source says around 20%. I don't know what the correct number is.
I appreciate your tolerance is hearing my views, and wish it could extend to understanding them. Because to many people who fought for the Confederacy, it was freedom and liberty they were fighting for. They were fighting against an all-encompassing federal government that was growing ever more powerful.
There were abolitionists in the South. They didn't have as much of a voice as the abolitionists in the North because the regions were intrinsically different. The North was already much more urban. Along with denser populations came venues where people could express their political opinions. In the more rural, agrarian society of the South, there were fewer newspapers, and the places where people could speak out, places like churches, were dominated by the rich people who had an economic stake in slavery. You were much more likely to end up in jail or dead if you were an abolitionist in the South. Northern industrialists had an economic reason for funding abolitionist movement, aside from moral concerns. To assume that the majority of Southerners was pro-slavery is a tremendous assumption. It is more likely that the majority of Southerners were anti-slavery or simply indifferent to the plight of the black people. Southerners who were farther inland, who were trying to turn the wilderness into a civilized place, who still felt the dangers of Indian attacks, were not going to be inclined to worry about the morality of keeping slaves. It's not a judgment, it's just people being human.
DC
I don't find pro-Confederate views understandable because the war they fought was for the freedom and liberty of white southerners. They knew full well that Black southerners desired those same freedoms and liberties, yet fought and died in the interest of denying them. I hardly call that bravery.
Moreover, I would find it humorous if it weren't so insulting, the suggestion that the majority of southerners were anti-slavery. Such a sentiment (as artificial as it is) belies the Jim Crow, Black Codes, lynchings, burnings, bombings, shootings, and theft of land that preceded the war. And yet again, we're supposed to believe that the majority of southerners were also opposed to those things, yet still couldn't muster up the courage to abolish them either.
I don't find pro-Confederate views understandable because the war they fought was for the freedom and liberty of white southerners. They knew full well that Black southerners desired those same freedoms and liberties, yet fought and died in the interest of denying them. I hardly call that bravery.
Moreover, I would find it humorous if it weren't so insulting, the suggestion that the majority of southerners were anti-slavery. Such a sentiment (as artificial as it is) belies the Jim Crow, Black Codes, lynchings, burnings, bombings, shootings, and theft of land that preceded the war. And yet again, we're supposed to believe that the majority of southerners were also opposed to those things, yet still couldn't muster up the courage to abolish them either.
I'm not advocating that you believe anything. You have your life experiences, which I can never share, to inform you in your values and beliefs. While I may live in the South, I'm a Massachusetts liberal. I don't think I've ever even touched a Confederate flag, never mind flown one. I'm just suggesting that the people who do display this flag have their own life experiences, that they might not be so different from you, but they've pulled different things from history, so judging them as racist without really knowing anything about them may be jumping the gun, so to speak.
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