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THANK their lucky stars for the likes of Sherman and Grant???? You have GOT to be kidding. That is like saying someone needs to be thankful to the person who rapes or tortures them. Because that is EXACTLY what those two animals did to the SOUTH. Liz
I agree totally. That "Southerners should thank their lucky stars for men like Lincoln, Sherman, and Grant" is an idiotic statement! Those guys ran the thuggish Federal goon squads just like Janet Reno did under Clinton. Talk about aggression! The Southern folk in the 1860s were simply defending their homes from coercive government autocracy.
IMO, as a black person, after seeing how people are, as long as the confederate flag isn't flown in the name or promotion of racism, slavery, or hatred, I am truly neutral to its sight. I realize that many blacks before me have suffered under its historical representation, and that to me is seen as abominable as the Holocaust. But as for my own personal experiences (the places where I've been judged by my race vs. the places where I've been judged by my character), the state flags of New Jersey, New York, and especially Maryland will always cause me more mental anguish than any confederate flag. Just my two cents on this issue.
The problem I see is that unless black people feel the same about the Stars and Stripes the issue is nonsensical....until the southern states seceded those enslaved were under the US flag.
The Civil War was not about abolition of slavery and I do believe Lincoln himself stated
Quote:
"My paramount objective in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it"
IMO, this is all a matter of point of view...let's see...
I am an Asian-American (parents were born in Taiwan) who was born in Maryland and spent my childhood in different areas of the North and my adolescence in Virginia. Obviously, I grew up naively learning that the Civil War was purely based on slavery based on the simplistic definition in history books in the North, but upon coming down South, I've learned differently.
Honestly, both sides had a point. The South was right in seceding because the Union was comprised of a confederacy of states...in no way should the federal power have superseded the power of the states, as the federal government's power came from the states. I've spent a LOT of time arguing this point with my college hallmates (I am back in the North in Philadelphia for college), as well as things such as the Confederate flag, which many see as being as atrocious as a swastika.
The North on the other hand, was right in trying to keep the nation together...it kept the nation much stronger than it would've been. However, did they use excessive force? Yes, indeed, they did. Think of it this way. Had the North considered the South as their brother and trying to bring them back in the fold, why would they use excessive force? You simply would not do that to part of your country. Under that methodology, do you really think the North considered the South part of the country?
Other points...
1. I agree that the CSA flag certainly does NOT represent the KKK or racism on a whole. It may in some areas, but that is not what the flag embodies.
2. I do think the Confederate flag is representative of the different culture and lifestyle that exists down South. I have honestly learned to love and cherish the more laid back, relaxed, respectful, and generous way of life down here. To be frank, the people down South are a lot nicer on a whole.
Strangers are willing to give you a hand...etc.
3. Do I find the flag offensive? Certainly not. It simply represents a different culture and heritage from the country on a whole. It is not rebellious anymore, but simply upholding different values.
4. Would I hang a Confederate flag personally? I don't have the heritage or the blood so that makes it seem sort of odd, but I do see the South playing as much as an influence on my life as say, Taiwan. In that sense, I really do respect the CSA flag.
If Germany proudly flew the Swastika, German people walked around with it on tee shirts, had it hanging in the windows of their cars, do you think Jewish people would feel comfortable?
Both the confederate flag and the swastika have historical meaning beyond the bad that is associated with them. The swastika has been and still is in some religions such as Hinduism, a religious symbol. However the fact is that both of these symbols are associated with terrible atrocities, and for me the fact that some people want to overlook the facts to the point of gross insensitivity, that is what bothers me more than the actual flag.
If Germany proudly flew the Swastika, German people walked around with it on tee shirts, had it hanging in the windows of their cars, do you think Jewish people would feel comfortable?
Both the confederate flag and the swastika have historical meaning beyond the bad that is associated with them. The swastika has been and still is in some religions such as Hinduism, a religious symbol. However the fact is that both of these symbols are associated with terrible atrocities, and for me the fact that some people want to overlook the facts to the point of gross insensitivity, that is what bothers me more than the actual flag.
Again, how do you reconcile this with flying the American, Spanish, English, Dutch, Portuguese, Brazilian, and most Central and South American Flags as well as those of most Carribean nations and most African Nations???
Almost ALL stood for societies that condoned slavery on some level.... IMO comparing that to a flag under which a plan was laid to systematically wipe a race off the face of the Earth is extreme...
Again with the Confederate Flag it's the fact that it was hijacked by hate groups that has everyone in an uproar, otherwise they'd rally against ALL Confederate Flags which they don't. Only the one.
Aren't some of these arguments similar to the response that former Nazi youths from WWII give for their nostalgia of the swastika? I saw a documentary on PBS. Some former Nazi's claim that they weren't at all interested in killing Jews. They claim that they were only interested in the camaraderie and German pride. These men say that's what the swastika initially symbolized for Germans: patriotism. They claim is was only some Germans who took it further with the holocaust craziness, not them. They claim they use the flag only to remember to good parts of Germany. What I don't understand is why anyone would purposely continue to use the swastika, confederate flag or any other symbol that represents something very painful or ugly for most people in the world (the swastika) or most people in America (the confederate flag) just because a minority of people think it's okay. Why do you continue to take pride in a symbol that nationally represents something negative? Does that make sense? Exactly what honor did the flag bring to the south? Even today, hundreds of years later it still viewed with disdain by most Americans. It symbolized division, pain, negative, etc. by "most" Americans. Why not find a better symbol of your southern pride? Or is that too much? Or would that be too much like finally admitting defeat of the southern way of life? I don't understand, but would like to.
With the war practically over, General Sherman's men marched into Columbia, looted all valuables, burned the food stores, raped the black women, and burned the city. Then he left town, and burned or looted everything he could find across the countryside - which is an interesting way of "liberating" a place.
Aside from burning down Columbia, Sherman tried to kill as many South Carolinians as possible by starvation. He very clearly wanted revenge, and essentially attempted genocide on civilians to get it. So it's unclear to me why you think southerners should thank their lucky stars for men like Sherman.
You seem not to want to acknowledge the role of South Carolina and its politicians in bringing about the Civil War. Even today, some of the most rabid crypto-Confederates are found there.
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