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I am not against unions per se, but I am against workers being FORCED into unions upon employment.. However, considering union membership has been in steady decline over the past 35 years, it does not really matter as it would appear they are on the way out as is..
Quote:
Originally Posted by padcrasher
And companies that don't have any unions can be downright illegal, mean, and mistreatful of their workers?
That is bulls**t, I have worked under two different unions, the UAW, and more recently the UTU... I have also worked at least 7 jobs that were non-union. Not once did I feel mistreated, nor did I feel wronged in any way. As a matter of fact, in non-union fields, the employers were more willing to work directly with me, I did not have to go through the union. And trust me, if I felt wronged in any way I could flip through the yellow pages and find myself an attorney.. But then again, I prefer a more direct approach, not hiding behind someone else.
Out of curiosity padcrasher, what union(s) are you, or have you been in? You must have had a better experience with them than the rest of us...
I've had years of work experience, many with unions. There are some good, and some bad. And, when they are bad, they are very bad.
The biggest problem with many unions is that they are simply either part of organized crime, or are simply organized criminals in their own right. And, anyone that has been part of a bad union knows what I am talking about.
Like everything else in our world, if congress makes it easier to organize unions in workplaces, the crooks and criminals will be the first in line.
Also, "featherbedding" and unreasonable work demands will be the attractions that the unions will use to compete against each other. And that will destroy many companies and industries.
The worst part will be the thugs that the unions will be using on the picket lines, to antagonize workers. Anyone that has experienced a workplace fight to unionize knows what I am talking about.
Again, unions can be good, when they are good unions - But, they can be nightmares when they are bad unions.
Speak to some of the older retired workers from some of the larger national unions - Ask them about what they are getting in their retirement. Some stories that you hear will not have such happy endings.
A lot of what you say has been true, unions are fighting for their very existance and times have changed. The finances of a unon are VERY regulated by the government. things have changed. I understand but todays modern unions are different than the old days.
Can someone explain what is wrong with secret ballots?
This same lie has been repeated by right wingers over and over and over again. The Employee Free Choice Act won't change secret ballots; what it will do is allow workers themselves to accept absentee ballots if they want too. The idea being that if you make it easier to vote then more people vote. Of course that's why the anti-union thugs are against Employee Free Choice because they know that if employees are given a free choice then more will vote to unionize which is the last thing the elites want. Secret ballots will still happen or if the employee himself wants he can fill out an absentee ballot weeks ahead of time so he doesn't have to actually go down and wait in lines on election day.
It works identically to the way we currently conduct national elections. That Republicans spend so much time lying about this tells us exactly how much they hate average workers having a free choice.
This same lie has been repeated by right wingers over and over and over again. The Employee Free Choice Act won't change secret ballots; what it will do is allow workers themselves to accept absentee ballots if they want too. The idea being that if you make it easier to vote then more people vote. Of course that's why the anti-union thugs are against Employee Free Choice because they know that if employees are given a free choice then more will vote to unionize which is the last thing the elites want. Secret ballots will still happen or if the employee himself wants he can fill out an absentee ballot weeks ahead of time so he doesn't have to actually go down and wait in lines on election day.
It works identically to the way we currently conduct national elections. That Republicans spend so much time lying about this tells us exactly how much they hate average workers having a free choice.
Ummm, come again? I don't recall "recruiters" at polling places for national elections with little pieces of paper for me to sign, looking over my shoulder as I did so. What state do you live in? In mine, ballots are private, the election boards are prevented by law from knowing how individuals voted. Why do you fear this so much? Tell the truth, isn't it the union that determines if cardcheck, rather than secret ballot, is choosen as the tool to unionize? Or to be more exact, the people trying to organize the union, rather than the individuals that would be voting. Why are unions so afraid of secret ballots? Card Check is not the same as absentee ballots, the secret ballot approach is.
Last edited by Toyman at Jewel Lake; 03-18-2009 at 09:05 AM..
This same lie has been repeated by right wingers over and over and over again. The Employee Free Choice Act won't change secret ballots; what it will do is allow workers themselves to accept absentee ballots if they want too. The idea being that if you make it easier to vote then more people vote. Of course that's why the anti-union thugs are against Employee Free Choice because they know that if employees are given a free choice then more will vote to unionize which is the last thing the elites want. Secret ballots will still happen or if the employee himself wants he can fill out an absentee ballot weeks ahead of time so he doesn't have to actually go down and wait in lines on election day.
It works identically to the way we currently conduct national elections. That Republicans spend so much time lying about this tells us exactly how much they hate average workers having a free choice.
The Employee Free Choice Act will do away with secret ballots.
Well, you just keep repeating that lie as repubs do to "prove" a point but that still doesn't make it true .
Employees will have a choice.
First of all, I'm not a "repub", and secondly, it is true. Read the bill. The new legislation will let the unions persuade employees to sign cards. The cards had previously been to indicate that the employee favored going to a union election. The new cards will indicate that the employee wants to join the union. There's a difference---one says let's see how everybody feels about this, the other says I want to join the union. The new legislation says that when the union has a majority of the employees' signed cards, they go directly to the Labor Board. The Labor Board refers the employees names to the the employer to verify employment. When that is done, the Labor Board certifies the card-checks and appoints the union as the employees' representative in future employment negotiations. The Labor Board could set up an election, at the union's request, but they won't, because why would the union request it? The union has already gotten a majority of employees to card-check. The election would only delay unionization. The employer no longer gets to request it, because since they are provided with a list of names of pro-union employees to verify the card-checks, they have too much opportunity to upset the results, and unions have for decades held that the election is used as a delaying tactic by businesses.
I'm not anti-union, either. I just think that EVERYONE has a right to freely, independently make up their mind about this, and that when you take away the secret ballot, you are damaging free, independent choice. Unions are selling something. The union reps are trying to sell the employees on the idea that they can do a better job negotiating an employment contract than the employees can dealing directly with the employer. And that's often true. But any salesman would much prefer dealing person-to-person, face-to-face, up-close and personal, because it's way harder to say no to someone saying, look, all you have to do is sign this card. It costs you nothing up front. Everyone else is signing up. You don't want to be the person holding out, you just need to sign it. And this is exactly what will happen. Only, signing the card isn't saying let's give everyone a chance to vote. It's saying, I want to go union. And once that 50.1% are card-checked, the 49.9% never get a chance to vote. This isn't Employee Free Choice.
This from Wiki, provides a description of the process. Cleared up some misconceptions I had, maybe it will help others (assuming it's accurate).
The current method for workers to win recognition of their union in the United States is a sign-up then an election process. In that, a petition or an authorization card with the signatures of at least 30% of the employees requesting a union is submitted to the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB), who then verifies and orders a secret ballot election. Two exceptions exist. If over 50% of the employees sign an authorization card requesting a union, the employer can voluntarily choose to waive the secret ballot election process and just recognize the union. The other exception is a last resort, which allows the NLRB to order an employer to recognize a union if over 50% have signed cards if the employer has engaged in unfair labor practices that make a fair election unlikely.
Under the proposed Employee Free Choice Act (EFCA), if the NLRB verifies that over 50% of the employees signed authorization cards, the secret ballot election is bypassed and a union is automatically formed. Introduced in the U.S. Congress in 2005 and reintroduced in 2007 and 2009, the EFCA provides that the NLRB would recognize the union's role as the official bargaining representative if a majority of employees have authorized that representation via majority sign-up (card check), without requiring a secret ballot election.[1][2] Under The EFCA, if over 30% and less than 50% of employees sign a petition or authorization cards, the NLRB would still order a secret ballot election for union representation. In other words, the current threshold to have a secret ballot election is signatures from 30% of employees. The EFCA would keep that threshold, but make a new threshold of signatures from 50% + 1 of employees to bypass the secret ballot election and automatically be unionized. Therefore a petition signature would have the same weight as a "yes" vote in a secret ballot election.
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The Employee Free Choice Act won't change secret ballots; what it will do is allow workers themselves to accept absentee ballots if they want too. The idea being that if you make it easier to vote then more people vote. Of course that's why the anti-union thugs are against Employee Free Choice because they know that if employees are given a free choice then more will vote to unionize which is the last thing the elites want. Secret ballots will still happen or if the employee himself wants he can fill out an absentee ballot weeks ahead of time so he doesn't have to actually go down and wait in lines on election day.
