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I'll explain it to you. You won't understand it. It's called having morals. And morals don't depend on who is or is not your countryman. That's an accident of life: an accident of on what side of an imaginary line on the globe your mother squirted you out.
I can't understand how someone could be so smitten with Bush, or with the country itself, that they'd be willing to lie in such a shameless way for them as you just did.
Ohhhh, a degree in criminal justice aye? Impressive. The fact remains that the basic concept of warfare completly escapes your 'educated' mind. My basic premise is, that if we are not going to fight to win, we should not commit our troops to the field. Dropping bombs and people burning to death is what happens in a war. And worse.
Well, I hope you didn't cry in your beer about 9/11, since we were the ones that set the war off with the people in the part of the world, and since they were only using methods you recommend yourself.
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Patton had the right concept of what war is. Your 'house' is going to get dirty when the SHTF. You sometimes have to make a mess to clean one up.
And you're left with that mess to clean up, and the one after that, and the one after that. At what point the original mess seems preferable depends on one's level of attention and/or fanaticism.
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Wrap your brain around the simple concept that a war with and enemy ,such as we are faced with now, is going to require that things get messy. That degree in criminal justice won't buy a grain of sand on the battlfield.
It won't buy me a car wash either. That doesn't exempt me from obeying the laws, nor does it exempt anyone else from obeying the laws.
Let's face the fact you've been evading: we're in a war indeed, but it's one of our own making, and which we should be ashamed of.
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Sullying our reputation? Oh Gawwwwd!. Our 'reputation' is prtty seriously sullyed by the appearance , to our enemies, as a weak, and uncommited foe, that would scurry away when things get messy.
How about scurrying away because who runs the Middle East was none of our ****ing business in the first place?
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And they are right. Why should they fear an enemy such as us? We denounce them as 'brutal', 'uncivilized', and look down upon their culture. We elevate ourselves as being 'above' them because of their methods. We try and export our values and sensibilities onto them. We tell them that 'Democracy is the true path' and we just can't understand why they hate us.
You can't understand it. I can understand it perfectly. We helped the Israelis **** them for 60 years good and hard. There are other lesser issues, but that was, no pun intended, the straw that broke the camel's back.
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Everthing that I have described is an integral part of their culture. They take such things ,as we find to be deplorable, for granted as a part of life.
Who, precisely, are you talking about?
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If we are not willing to do that, we should just let them blow our people up and stay home.
If we knew how to practice staying at home, they wouldn't be blowing our people up, genius. They are doing more or less what we or anyone would do in their place.
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If we need to extract intell, we should extract it , and how we do that should not even be an issue.
Well as long as we are hampered by these annoying little things called "laws" and "treaties", it is an issue. Sorry.
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This country has fought wars in the past, without such nonsense as this, and won. With our national pride and principals intact. So, what is so different about this war?
Nothing. Almost all of those wars were bull**** propaganda too. And we had nothing to be proud about. So you're absolutely right; this is no different.
If this be treason, make the most of it. And you're not my friend, you're a little flag-waving brainwashed lump of ****. Your enemies may very well not be my enemies. And the enemies of the scum who inhabited the White House before 1/20/09 probably aren't my enemies.
Information gotten by any method might be false. But the idea is to get them to talk. Then the information can be verified. And if they are not telling the truth, then there are further consequences. However, it depends on who is being interrogated as well - if the suspect has anything worth revealing - you don't know.
Good point, although it's a point for me, not for you. How many torture sessions before you decide someone has nothing worth revealing?
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I heard a really dumb argument that the Chinese used these methods to get prisoners of war to confess to their crimes - implying the prisoners would say anything. This was supposed to be an example of the worthlessness of their methods - that the prisoners made false statements. A ridiculous argument since the prisoners did what the Chinese wanted them to do. The truth or falseness of the confession is irrelevant, and a matter of opinion.
Of course no one is suggesting we water-board people to force them to confess to false crimes.
I have absolutely no confidence in the claim that the Chinese would do something like that, but we never would. What utter lunacy.
If this be treason, make the most of it. And you're not my friend, you're a little flag-waving brainwashed lump of ****. Your enemies may very well not be my enemies. And the enemies of the scum who inhabited the White House before 1/20/09 probably aren't my enemies.
Of course not. They're your friends. You don't want to see your friends water-boarded. I understand that. But tell your friends that if they want to fight fair and square, then they should put on a uniform, and we'll meet them on a regular battlefield - away from the civilian population.
Just kidding. I agree the war serves no purpose. And the U.S. should stay out of the Middle East. But I still find this hostility towards Bush a bit confusing. You're stabbing your own Commander-in-Chief in the back, and you don't think it's wrong? I'm not a Bush supporter. And I'm not even going to say if the war is right or wrong. But what's worse? - being water-boarded or having your head cut off? What they did to people is far worse than what Bush did to them.
I agree the war serves no purpose. And the U.S. should stay out of the Middle East. But I still find this hostility towards Bush a bit confusing. You're stabbing your own Commander-in-Chief in the back, and you don't think it's wrong?
No, because the war serves no purpose, and we should stay out of the Middle East. In my mind, that conditions everything else. The fact that my mother and George W. Bush's mother heaved us out on the same side of an imaginary line on the globe, in contrast, means exactly zero.
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I'm not a Bush supporter. And I'm not even going to say if the war is right or wrong. But what's worse? - being water-boarded or having your head cut off? What they did to people is far worse than what Bush did to them.
First of all, if you are going to compare the US in general to al-Qaeda in general, we probably come out the worse. Second, what they do or refrain from doing does not make a whit of difference in our laws. Third, we are not confronted with a choice between waterboarding people and beheading people. Fourth, if we were, and a detainee were to die of heart failure after the 185th session of waterboarding, no I would not draw any distinction between that and beheading them, and I wonder where any such possible distinction could even arise.
I think we should waterboard MarkT3 once and see how he likes it
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. Our 'reputation' is prtty seriously sullyed by the appearance , to our enemies, as a weak, and uncommited foe, that would scurry away when things get messy.
I agree the war serves no purpose. And the U.S. should stay out of the Middle East. But I still find this hostility towards Bush a bit confusing. You're stabbing your own Commander-in-Chief in the back, and you don't think it's wrong? I'm not a Bush supporter. And I'm not even going to say if the war is right or wrong. But what's worse? - being water-boarded or having your head cut off? What they did to people is far worse than what Bush did to them.
