Obama utters the "amnesty" word regarding illegals (minimum wage, generation, Kerry)

[afoigrokerkok]

Originally Posted by muleskinner

I am a VERY moderate Dem and I am not for any kind of amnesty nor have I ever been.I am the first guy to call the Sheriff's dept when I see them passing through here(that is NOT racist..we have local fruit orchard owners and farmers who hire them and the whole county knows who they are).

I think a lot of the repub posters on here screaming the loudest seem to forget that McCain and Kennedy wrote a big amnesty bill together...McCain's own state is completely OVERRAN with illegals and the GOP is all for keeping the illegals here for the cheap(see:near free) labor for their friends and big contributors, BIG BUSINESS.

So before you starting talking about Dems ONLY,you should research a bit and you'll see that BOTH parties have a huge hand in this and neither party cares what we think about it.

I agree. The Repubs don't seem to care either - obviously due to the free labor as you mentioned. And, BTW, I was completely against McCain's bill and am glad it didn't pass.

That said, this is a Democratic proposal so I decided to specify "Democrats." Maybe I should have asked an open-ended question "does anyone support amnesty? is anyone pro-illegal immigration?"

[alphaluce]

Many American citizens feel the frustration of betrayal by our duplicitous leaders, as well as the sting and exasperation of the disrespect and sense of entitlement displayed by illegal aliens in our Country. Were the roles reversed and Americans were to pour across our neighbor's borders, it would be considered an invasion by those Nations. I seriously doubt their citizens, or their government, educational, health, welfare, or social systems would tolerate our illegal presence the way America has (too long), tolerated scofflaws. Yet, we are called racist, inhumanitarian, oppressors, and worse, by the disingenuous who would convince us it is OUR fault, and thus our RESPONSIBILITY, to receive those who will not stand and DEMAND dignity, liberty and opportunity from their own corrupt leaders. They instead break and enter, issue demands, march, organize, demonstrate, petition, and fly their flags on our sovereign soil, hoping to claim here what they dare not in their own nations. Many of our leaders (government, religious and business), activists, apologists, defenders and supporters pave the way and aid the illegals in their quest. This enrages the good and generous citizens of the United States who welcome legal immigrants. Many American's disgust is reserved for our current administration and the apologists and enablers on both sides of the aisle, who betray our Nation with platitudes, excuses, and subversive attempts to hold a fire-sale of precious citizenship in exchange for votes and cheap labor. The onslaught will transform our Nation from a Melting Pot.....to a Chamber Pot.

[Swampmonster]

Originally Posted by alphaluce

Many American citizens feel the frustration of betrayal by our duplicitous leaders, as well as the sting and exasperation of the disrespect and sense of entitlement displayed by illegal aliens in our Country. Were the roles reversed and Americans were to pour across our neighbor's borders, it would be considered an invasion by those Nations. I seriously doubt their citizens, or their government, educational, health, welfare, or social systems would tolerate our illegal presence the way America has (too long), tolerated scofflaws. Yet, we are called racist, inhumanitarian, oppressors, and worse, by the disingenuous who would convince us it is OUR fault, and thus our RESPONSIBILITY, to receive those who will not stand and DEMAND dignity, liberty and opportunity from their own corrupt leaders. They instead break and enter, issue demands, march, organize, demonstrate, petition, and fly their flags on our sovereign soil, hoping to claim here what they dare not in their own nations. Many of our leaders (government, religious and business), activists, apologists, defenders and supporters pave the way and aid the illegals in their quest. This enrages the good and generous citizens of the United States who welcome legal immigrants. Many American's disgust is reserved for our current administration and the apologists and enablers on both sides of the aisle, who betray our Nation with platitudes, excuses, and subversive attempts to hold a fire-sale of precious citizenship in exchange for votes and cheap labor. The onslaught will transform our Nation from a Melting Pot.....to a Chamber Pot.

I agree with you.You just forgot to add the fact that we were highly disgusted by the last administration too.

[old_cold]

I have a question.
Putting aside, for now, the objection to awarding illegals with legal status.

How many illegals are working at jobs that pay 'legal' wages and benefits?

There are two assumptions usually made.
One: Employers are saving money by hiring them and
Two: Americans wouldn't/won't work for those wages.
With unemployment as it now is, #2 is no longer necessarily true (if it ever was).

Concerning #1, if it be the case.
If made legal, wouldn't the wages have to increase?
Would there be a reason employers would choose them to hire rather than .....'longer term'... citizens? Could they then compete for jobs?

[HappyTexan]

Originally Posted by old_cold

I have a question.
Putting aside, for now, the objection to awarding illegals with legal status.

How many illegals are working at jobs that pay 'legal' wages and benefits?

There are two assumptions usually made.
One: Employers are saving money by hiring them and
Two: Americans wouldn't/won't work for those wages.
With unemployment as it now is, #2 is no longer necessarily true (if it ever was).

Concerning #1, if it be the case.
If made legal, wouldn't the wages have to increase?
Would there be a reason employers would choose them to hire rather than .....'longer term'... citizens? Could they then compete for jobs?

Actually the employer could pay out the same exact wage to illegals as he does to legals. The difference is that, with illegals, the employer does not have to pay out the additional overhead (SS, unemployment, etc).
So, in effect the employer gets to keep more of his money by using illegals while paying out the same salary to the worker.

We Americans cost too much to companies. I'm in IT so this area is familar to me.
A US programmer typically costs a company $120-$150K a year (salary, benefits, government taxes).
An Indian programmer typically costs a company $30-$50K a year.
A Chinese programmer typically costs a company $60-70K a year.
Vietnam is the new "cheapest" country now for programmers - I don't know that number but assume it's less than India so under $30K a year.

In the above cases all have 4 year college degrees; in the case of India you can get a PhD for about $75K a year.

[jfre81]

Do we have the resources to deport all the illegals? It's one thing to talk about something and another to actually do it.

[afoigrokerkok]

Originally Posted by jfre81

Do we have the resources to deport all the illegals? It's one thing to talk about something and another to actually do it.

Cut off any and all welfare to illegals and start penalizing their employers - make them self-deport.

[jfre81]

Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok

start penalizing their employers

What if those employers are donating to the campaigns of the politicians who would be pushing for this?

This is why it would never happen. There are too many interests that benefit from a steady flow of cheap labor.

[afoigrokerkok]

Originally Posted by jfre81

What if those employers are donating to the campaigns of the politicians who would be pushing for this?

This is why it would never happen. There are too many interests that benefit from a steady flow of cheap labor.

Agreed. This is why it's unlikely to happen. Which is why we need to start demanding it.

Last time I checked, those officials still work for us.

[jfre81]

Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok

Agreed. This is why it's unlikely to happen. Which is why we need to start demanding it.

It's not about who speaks loudest but who pays most.