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What an Excellent thread, one of the Best I have seen since joining this board. Well Done! I also note that it is obvious that those that have bought into the propaganda from the right are having a very difficult time refuting the Truth, it always is.
Casper
This is a very long post and for that I apologize for that, but it's very worth reading. I felt it deserved it's own thread.
Another poster had posted what she had heard Peter Fleckstein say about Obama's Health Care Plan. She wrote the page , section and even line number that he was references. Funny, this poster suggested we all read it...she obviously didn't read it herself, but posted what she thought was a "trusted" source. Unfortunately many people will just take his word for it and NOT read it for themselves. When I did, it's ASTONISHING how far the right stretches to place FEAR into the minds of the people.. and how FAR OFF they are... I mean these people are truly desperate to dissuade the American public away from this plan. ..and you have to wonder why.
Anyway.. the information she/he wrote is in black.. mine replies and even quotes from the bill are in blue.
Enjoy.. and you know what.. don't even take my word for it.. DO read it for yourself. Your eyes will be open to how badly the right is lying to all of you! AND don't even take Obama and the White House's word for it.. READ IT.. I did!
Pg 22 of the Bill MANDATES the Govt will audit books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self insure!!
Page 22 talks about a government STUDY on different forms of health care coverage. .. Particularly Large group insured and self insured employer based health markets.
The difference between them and the risks faced by the self insured being able to pay obligations or otherwise becoming financially insolvent. Etc. NOWHERE on that page does it talk about auditing self insured businesses books.
> Pg 30 Sec 123 of bill - THERE WILL BE A GOVT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benefits you receive.
This talks about a government ADVISORY committee for both private and public options to RECOMMEND covered benefits and essential , enhanced and Premiume (in otherwords, to advise what level certain things falls under etc..
> Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill - YOUR HEALTHCARE IS RATIONED.
Rationed? NO. .this sets a STANDARD of CARE for the ESSENTIAL BENEFITS Package as defined in another section.. in otherwords.. a level of insurance that is the MINIMUM acceptable to be considered GOOD coverage and NOT underinsurance. As a matter of fact.. here is a line from the previous page under that section
10 does not impose any annual or lifetime limit
11 on the coverage of covered health care items and
12 services;
The subsequent sections also talk about what insurance has to cover MINIMALLY.. and INCLUDES maternity.. WHICH .. BTW. Is not ALWAYS covered under every plan available NOW!
It limits cost sharing.. in otherwords.. out of pocket expenses for the insured individual so as not to be exorbetent and therefore overly expensive making insurance at the MINIMUM level much more expensive BEYOND the monthly premiums for the insured.
>
And.. those lines you are referring to.. talk about MAXIMUMS that cost sharing.. ie: money out of the insureds pocket CAN NOT EXCEED.. NOWHERE in there does it mention ANYTHING about rationing care!!!
> Pg 42 of HC Bill - The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your Health care Benefits for you. You have no choice in the decision.
WOW.. they really know how to twist things don’t they.
His job is to make sure that INSURANCE PLANS THAT ARE OUT THERE AND OFFERED ON THE EXCHANGE MEET THE MINIMUM STANDARD SET FORTH AND AS MENTIONED ABOVE.
Again.. this is in response to plans that basically offer NOTHING.. THIS is so that ALL OF US who purchase insurance can be CONFIDENT that there is a MINIMUM STANDARD with things SET OUT that we KNOW will be covered at the very BASIC standard level!!!
He is also in charge of setting up the exchange of plans.. in otherwords.. all those submitted into the exchange comply with the law in regards to cost sharing/ standards/etc.
>
> PG 50 Section 152 in HC bill - Healthcare will be provided to ALL non US citizens, illegal or otherwise.
NO.. it says that INSURANCE on the exchange can not be denied for discriminatory reasons.. in otherwords and illegal immigrant CAN purchase insurance. NOWHERE in there does it even USE the words illegal and immigrant. ..
>
> Pg 58 - Govt will have real-time access to individual finances & a National ID Healthcard will be issued.
Here is the text you are referring to
enable the real-time (or near real6
time) determination of an individual’s financial
7 responsibility at the point of service and, to the
8 extent possible, prior to service, including
9 whether the individual is eligible for a specific
10 service with a specific physician at a specific fa11
cility, which may include utilization of a ma12
chine-readable health plan beneficiary identi13
fication card;
>
Nowhere in there does it say ANYTHING About a National health Care CARD.. ONLY a BENEFITS CARD..which is basically your insurance ID card and talks about REAL TIME availability of information right there about what you are covered for and what your charges are. It cuts down on the paperwork.. and mistakes .
> Pg 59 HC Bill lines 21-24 Govt will have direct access to your bank accounts for direct funds transfers.
>
NO.. it talks about standardized electronic Adminstrative Transactions.. in otherwords the Dr.s office and/or insurance company will automatically deduct your copay from your card. If you are on a government plan, then the government plan will withdraw your funds electronically ( ore really the doctor will at the point of transaction) this also eliminates paperwork.
BTW.. the DR. is the one who collects the copays NOT the insurance company be it a private or public company. AND. FYI .. most likely any insurance company ALREADY knows your bank account numbers etc… because it is there whenever you pay your bill!!
> PG 65 Sec 164 is a payoff subsidized plan for retirees and their families in Unions & community orgs (ACORN).
to provide reim19
bursement to assist participating employment-based
20 plans with the cost of providing health benefits to
21 retirees and to eligible spouses, surviving spouses
22 and dependents of such retirees.
23 (
Huh? Acorn.. so Acorn is the only employer, employee group out there that provides insurance to retirees?? Yeah.. okay.. not one mention of ACORN in there AT ALL.
>
> Pg 72 Lines 8-14 Govt is creating a Healthcare Exchange to bring private healthcare plans under Govt control.
No.. it’s setting up the exchange to make sure that plans SOLD to consumers meets the MINIMUM STANDARD of insurance.. Do you know how many people have insurance that is basically WORTHLESS and covers absolutely NOTHING of any substance?? And then that person thinking they were “insured” is actually NOT!! Not really?
It’s basically acting as a HUB of choices for individuals and businesses. AND in order to BE in that “exchange” you MUST meet quality standards set forth by the government. Simple to understand and it makes much sense!!
>
> PG 84 Sec 203 HC bill - Govt mandates ALL benefit packages for private Healthcare plans in the Exchange
>
No.. once again.. it sets STANDARDS for the different levels.. so that you are getting a Basic if you pay for basic and arent’ thinkng you are paying for Premium when you are not getting the “level” deemed PREMIUM.
> PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specifics for Benefit Levels of Plans = The Government rations Healthcare based on cost benefits to government.
Rations.. LOL.. do you know or he know what rationing is?? NO. .it just sets the quality level for each level.. it doesn’t say that each person only gets X amount of dollars allotted to them or x amount of procedures.. Obviously the lame brain who made these comments does not know what they are talking about.. or they are really perverting what it actually says to scare people.. most of whom would not even do what I’m doing now.. actually READ each section. Geez.. it just blows my mind how ridiculous this is.
>
> PG 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill - Govt mandates linguistic appropriation services or translation services for illegal aliens.
>
Hmm.. there are plenty people here legally for whom English language is not their first language.. Are they not entitled to fully understand their doctors, nurses or the medical forms they are given? We are the “melting pot” of the world are we not. Which means that there are many people that live here legally and otherwise who do not speak fluint English nor would understand more complex language involved in forms that would be more comfortable reading it in their own language. Says NOTHING about illegal immigrants. Heck there are people here illegally that speak English better than some people who are here legally. This assertion is just ridiculous and meant to appeal to the right wingers who want to throw out health care reform for their own citizens , who far outnumber illegals, because of their stance on immigration or animosity toward illegals.
> Pg 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18 The Govt will use groups like ACORN & Americorps to sign up individuals for Govt Healthcare plan
What is wrong with this? It talks about these groups REACHING OUT to the most vulnerable of the population.. the ones most likely unable to afford a private plan and teaching them about their options of a public plan AND all those that will be part of the exchange. They are utilizing group/ groups that already have the ability and who are already working in an outreach capacity to reach people that need to be reached in order to pull them from the ranks of the uninsured INTO the ranks of the insured.
>
> -PG 102 Lines 12-18 HC Bill - Medicaid Eligible Individuals will be automatically enrolled in Medicaid.
>
Yeah.. what’s wrong with this. They haven’t elected to role and they qualify for FREE healthcare under Medicaid because of their income levels. .. which means that they can’t afford any of the private or even the public option in the exchange. Medicaid is FREE!! They do nothing and are enrolled in it automatically!! If they get ill or need to be treated for something.. .they are COVERED!! They would get it anyway because..they are POOR . So .. what is the problem.
> pg 124 lines 24-25 No company can sue GOVT on price fixing. No "judicial review" allowed against Govt monopoly
yeah.. so.. basically other insurance companies can’t sue the government because they offer cheaper plans.. .which, btw, is the point of offering a “cheaper” plan.. so that people can afford it.
Hey.. if someone can afford to pay more and is truly afraid of the government.. then they won’t chose the public option and will choose the private. Given how there are many that “fear’ government health care, I’m sure the higher cost private companies will not have any problems attracting buyers for a little more. Plus.. the lower cost government option may actually encourage some price competition within the private sector. How? Well for one they’ll have to forego corporate excess in order to compete.. in otherwords.. they won’t be able to pay one executive an excessive salary of 14M… not really a bad thing AT ALL.
It protects the governments ability to actually PROVIDE an alternative affordable option to the public should they chose to
>
> pg 127 Lines 1-16 HC Bill - Doctors/ AMA - The Govt will dictate what wage you are allowed to make. (Wage limits).
NO.. .. here it is:
PHYSICIANS.—The Secretary shall provide
2 for the annual participation of physicians under the
3 public health insurance option, for which payment
4 may be made for services furnished during the year,
5 in one of 2 classes:
6 (A) PREFERRED PHYSICIANS.—Those phy7
sicians who agree to accept the payment rate
8 established under section 223 (without regard
9 to cost-sharing) as the payment in full.
10 (B) PARTICIPATING, NON-PREFERRED
11 PHYSICIANS.—Those physicians who agree not
12 to impose charges (in relation to the payment
13 rate described in section 223 for such physi14
cians) that exceed the ratio permitted under
15 section 1848(g)(2)(C) of the Social Security
16 Act.
It talks about Doctors that CHOSE to Accept the FEES are basically IN the public plan network!!!
How is this any different than a doctor that agrees to accept the “fees” set forth and negotiated by the private insurance companies. It doesn’t dictate by any means a cap on a Dr’s income or any other health care service income.. ONLY the FEES that will be paid for the covered patient under the PUBLIC OPTION Plan!
17> Pg 145 Line 15-17 An Employers MUST enroll their employees into the public option plan. THEY HAVE NO CHOICE, and neither do the employees.
NO.. it says that an employer MUST provide coverage to its employers AND must do so from one of the insurance companies/plans offered in the Exchange.. again.. the exchange sets up STANDARDS… MINIMUM standards so as to eliminate sub standard insurance and coverage which basically is crap. And it makes sure that employers are offering adequate coverage to their employees AND it states that the employer must AUTOMATICALLY ENROLL employee in the plans that they select from the exchange..
It also states that an employer can not contribute less than a set amount (75% individual / 65% family) meaning that an individual will pay no more than 25% of the premium and a family 35% of the premium.
Yes.. it appears in this section that insurance is MANDATED.. but we all knew that.. No surprise. And there is a section that asseses fines for those not in compliance with the mandate. I believe for individuals it’s a 2% of income fine.
I have no problem with mandating of insurance. Car insurance is mandated the same way. You can’t lift pre-existing condition clauses without mandating coverage.
>
> Pg 126 Lines 22-25 Employers MUST pay premiums for every employee, part time employees AND their families as well.
I think this is referencing the wrong page
>
> Pg 149 Lines 16-24 ANY Employer with a payroll of $400,000 will have an 8% tax levied on all payroll.
Again.. this is the option if a company does not want to provide insurance.. and yes, it means either buy insurance or pay what amounts to a fine. Mandation of coverage…
>
> pg 150 Lines 9-13 Employers with payroll between $251,000 & 400,000 who does not provide in full, the public option, will have a 6% tax on all payroll levied.
Yes.. they do not have to buy insurance, but because they are smaller they pay a slightly lower fine.. Mandation of insurance coverage.
>
> Pg 167 Lines 18-23 ANY individual who doesn't have acceptable HC coverage according to Govt mandate, will be taxed at 2.5% of their income for healthcare. So, you will have government healthcare coverage, or you will be punished.
No. you don’t have to HAVE the government option or be punished…you have your choices of different options INCLUDING a public one. You are not forced to take the public one or even private. If not you will be assessed a fine of 2.5%. It’s not like they are automatically enrolling you in the government plan and deducting the money or adding the premium to your tax bill.You are simply paying into the system for being uninsured.. and rightfully so. Because if you get ill and sick, who do you think is going to pick up your bill. Tax payers. At least the fines you pay will help alleviate that bill paid by the rest of us should that uninsured person fall ill.
Remember.. those uninsured cost hospitals 37B in unpaid bills a year and the government much more. If people decide they still don’t want coverage, they SHOULD pay a fine to the government who will end up picking up their bill later. Nothing wrong with this. People will decide what is cheaper.. buying insurance or paying the 2.5% fine. Lets say you make $30K a year.. that is $780 dollar you’ll be paying> maybe a person making that much will elect to pay that cheaper fine than paying for the premiums offered on the exchange (including the government one). OR.. if they qualify for Medicaid they don’t’ have toworry.. they’ll have Medicaid at no cost AND no fine to boot.>
> Pg 170 Lines 1-3 HC Bill Any NONRESIDENT Alien is exempt from individual taxes. (Americans will pay)
Non resident aliens does not mean illegal aliens. However, since illegals don’t really file tax returns anyway I don’t understand what your objection is..LOL.they NEVER pay taxes.. Illegals are undocumented in all senses of the word.
>
> Pg 195 HC Bill -officers & employees of HC Administration (GOVT) will have total and complete access to ALL your personal financial, bank and investment information.
They basically have access to your tax return (which the government already has) to determine whether you qualify for health exchange subsidies. Um.. the government already has access to all that information.. Who do you think you are submitting your tax returns to? Some privately owned corporation???
>
> PG 203 Line 14-15 HC - "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax" Yes, it says that.
> You need to finish that sentence.. because it then goes on to say for a certain purpose.. under a certain section.. text below
The tax im15
posed under this section shall not be treated as tax
16 imposed by this chapter for purposes of determining
17 the amount of any credit under this chapter or for
18 purposes of section 55.’’.
19 (
> Pg 239 Line 14-24 HC Bill Govt will reduce physician services for Medicaid, Seniors, low income, and poor.
No… it talks about FEES Paid to physicians NOT actual services.
>
> Pg 241 Line 6-8 HC Bill - Wages for all doctors will be made the same. Specialists like Brain Surgeons will make the same money a General Practitioner makes.
No.. it talks about under the following categories of service provided the fees will be the same.. NOT over EVERYTHING provided by the specialists.. read the complete section below that that paragraph refers to; 9 ‘‘(5) SERVICE CATEGORIES.—For services fur10 nished on or after January 1, 2009, each of the fol11 lowing categories of physicians’ services (as defined 12 in paragraph (3)) shall be treated as a separate 13 ‘service category’: 14 ‘‘(A) Evaluation and management services 15 that are procedure codes (for services covered 16 under this title) for— 17 ‘‘(i) services in the category des18 ignated Evaluation and Management in the 19 Health Care Common Procedure Coding 20 System (established by the Secretary under 21 subsection (c)(5) as of December 31, 2009, 22 and as subsequently modified by the Sec23 retary); and VerDate Nov 24 200823:22Jul 14, 2009 Jkt 079200 PO 00000 Frm 00240 Fmt 6652 Sfmt 6201 E:\BILLS\H3200.IH H3200 jlentini on DSKJ8SOYB1PROD with BILLS 241 •HR 3200 IH 1 ‘‘(ii) preventive services (as defined in 2 section 1861(iii)) for which payment is 3 made under this section. 4 ‘‘(B) All other services not described in 5 subparagraph (A). 6 Service categories established under this paragraph 7 shall apply without regard to the specialty of the 8 physician furnishing the service.’’.
> > PG 253 Line 10-18 Govt sets value of Doctor's time. Govt. decides value of humans.
> It talks about the work and services of the DOCTOR.. NOT the value of the people the Doctor treats.. WOW.. how far the right will stretch!!!
> PG 265 Sec 1131Govt mandates & controls productivity for private HC industries.
This pertains to the government in medicare/Medicaid arena.. NOT between private insurance and those companies, doctors etc. The government has every right to do just that…as private industry does just those things when pertaining to quality, cost, etc.
>
> PG 268 Sec 1141 Fed Govt regulates rental & purchase of power driven wheelchairs
Under Medicaid/medicare..no different than a private negotiates with each entity. This is NOT across the board.. this all falls under Medicaid/medicare.
>
> PG 272 SEC. 1145. TREATMENT OF CERTAIN CANCER HOSPITALS - Cancer patients - welcome to rationing!
>
Rationing.. NO.. it talks about determining if some hospitals in the Medicaid/medicare network cost more than others that are just as effective is all. Nothing about limits on who gets what care or rationing.. Again.. a stretch and absurd accusation.
> Page 280 Sec 1151 The Govt will penalize hospitals for what Govt deems preventable re-admissions.
Again.. as related to medicare.. NOT as related to anything else other than who they pay for what.. that is the right of Medicaid/medicare.
>
> Pg 298 Lines 9-11 Doctors that treat a patient during initial admission will be penalized.
>
Under medicare.. in otherwords, the Dr. that treated is responsible for that treatment. If his work is sloppy.. he’ll get a reduced payment for not doing it right the first time..
> Pg 317 L 13-20 PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. Government dictates what Doctors can make and how much they can own.
Ah.. this is talking about when a Dr. under medicare refers a patient to a specific hospital. This si to prevent Dr’s from referring patients to a hospital based on monetary compensation above and beyond their fees by referring them to a hospital in which they have an “ownership” stake. It’s a conflict of interest of sorts.. kind of like a “kickback”. Makes sense. Again.. this is under MEDICARE/Medicaid only.
>
> Pg 317-318 lines 21-25,1-3 PROHIBITION on expansion- Govt mandates hospitals cannot expand without government approval.
Again.. only pertains to hospitals that qualify as providers under Medicaid/Medicare.. NOT across the boards.
>
> pg 321 2-13 Hospitals have opportunity to apply for exception BUT community input and approval is required. Can you say ACORN?!!
All falls under Medicaid/medicare.. has nothing to do with other reform private or government public option.
>
> Pg335 L 16-25 Pg 336-339 - Govt mandates establishment of outcome based measures. Rationing
It’s going to make sure that patients utilizing services are actually having an good outcome of said service. In otherwords.. what doesn’t work will be thrown out in favor of what does. Makes sense. And again. . this is al under the Medicaid/medicare section .. NOT the section pertaining to private insurance and public insurance option, exchange etc.
>
> Pg 341 Lines 3-9 Govt has authority to disqualify Medicare Advance Plans, HMOs, etc. Forcing people into the Govt plan.
If the plans do not meet the standards set forth under the criteria that they set up of MINIMUM standards in order to be a medicare/Medicaid provider, than they will not be a medicare/Medicaid provider. NOWHERE in that section does it say anything about then being pushed INTO the public option plan!!! THAT is a BOLD FACED LIE
> Pg 354 Sec 1177 - Govt will RESTRICT enrollment of Special needs persons for care. Can euthanasia be far behind for "undesirables"?
It means that someone can not enroll until the open enrollment period.. NOT that they can’t EVER enroll.
>
> Pg 379 Sec 1191 Govt creates more bureaucracy - Telehealth Advisory Committee. Can you say HC by phone?
It’s an EXPANSION of the telehealth.. meant to help those in RURAL areas.. as the title of that section indicates ; Medicare Rural Access Protections.
> > PG 425 Lines 4-12 Govt mandates Advance Care Planning Consultation. Euthanasia and Doctor-Assisted Suicide.
Mandates.. NO it provides seniors with counseling on setting up living wills, health care proxies and so on so that they along with their families, are prepared for what may come. It says nothing about killing off old people or Assisted Suicide. It counsels families about PALATIVE care and HOSPICE!!! It counsels on why it’s important to SET YOUR DIRECTIVE of what actions YOU want your family to take FOR YOU in the event you are unable to make decisions for yourself.. like.. do you want to be on life support if that is the only way to sustain your life..etc.Many people are not even aware of what these things are.. do you have ANY idea the turmoil of a family member not knowing what you may or may not want in the event of complete incapacitation has on people. >
> Pg 425 Lines 17-19 Govt will instruct & consult regarding living wills, and assume power of attorney of all enrollees. Mandatory!
NOWHERE does it say that the State will then make the decision . And if someone hasn’t designated someone to make the decision, then what? Who does if the person can’t. Is it so wrong that if you are enrolled in medicare you have someone to make decision for you should you not be able to so that YOUR OWN WISHES are carried out? It says right there the PERSONS OWN WISHES.. NOT that of the state.
>
> PG 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3 Govt provides approved list of end of life resources, guiding you in death decisions to end your life.
Here it is.. it’s basically just saying that the practitioner will provide a list of resources..RESOURCES!! All of which will help a person make the decisions THEY WANT!!!
An explanation by the practitioner of the
20 continuum of end-of-life services and supports avail21
able, including palliative care and hospice, and bene22
fits for such services and supports that are available
23 under this title.
VerDate Nov 24 2008 00:08 Jul 15, 2009 Jkt 079200 PO 00000 Frm 00425 Fmt 6652 Sfmt 6201 E:\BILLS\H3200.IH H3200 jlentini on DSKJ8SOYB1PROD with BILLSThe Govt will mandate how your life ends.
The government doesn’t mandate anything. It provides you with all your options!!
>
> Pg 429 Lines 1-9 An "advance care planning consultant" will be used frequently as a patient's health deteriorates
> > PG 429 Lines 10-12 "advance care consultation" may include an ORDER to initiate end of life plans. AN ORDER from GOV to terminate a life. >
No. .it talks about what constitutes a legal form of action set out by the patient for what THE PATIENT wants done as far as measures at the end of their life WHEN their health deteriorates.
Here is a line from it:
effectively communicates the individual’s
18 preferences regarding life sustaining treatment, in19
cluding an indication of the treatment and care de20
sired by the individual;
> Pg 429 Lines 13-25 - The govt will specify which Doctors can write an end of life order.
is signed and dated by a physician (as de9
fined in subsection (r)(1)) or another health care
10 professional (as specified by the Secretary and who
11 is acting within the scope of the professional’s au12
thority under State law in signing such an order, in13
cluding a nurse practitioner or physician assistant)
14 and is in a form that permits it to stay with the in15
dividual and be followed by health care professionals
16 and providers across the continuum of care
Clearly they are talking about a physician that is well a legal physician.. not just any Joe Schmo on the street people.. LOL Come on.. >
> PG 430 Lines 11-15 The Govt will decide what level of treatment you will have at end of life
NO .. it talks about conditions in which the directive SET FORTH by the patient is carried out! NOT what the Government wants.. but what YOU, the person on medicare, set forth in your health proxy and living will.
>
> Pg 469 - Community Based Home Medical Services=Non profit orgs. Hello, ACORN Medical Services here!!?
>
ACORN?? Well unless ACORN meets all the medical criteria with their facilities set out in this section than Acorn won’t be doing ANYTHING regarding end of life. You know “community” “not for profit” could also include..oh CATHOLIC HOSPICES too you know!!!
> Page 472 Lines 14-17 PAYMENT TO COMMUNITY-BASED ORG. 1 monthly payment to a community-based org.
See my statement above.
>
> PG 489 Sec 1308 The Govt will cover Marriage & Family therapy. Which means government will now be involved in marriage and family decisions.
LOL. No.. it talks about how it will cover marriage counseling and mental health services.. same as it covers any medical condition it covers. Unless you thinkn Senators are going to be sitting in the room telling you what to do?? Are these people aware of what therapy/counseling actually is? Another stretch and false information put forth by the right wingers.. and it’s ridiculous
From the bill:
The term ‘marriage and family therapist
9 services’ means services performed by a marriage and
10 family therapist (as defined in paragraph (2)) for the diag11
nosis and treatment of mental illnesses, which the mar12
riage and family therapist is legally authorized to perform
13 under State law
>
> Pg 494-498 Govt will cover Mental Health Services including defining, creating, rationing those services.
No.. it will provide coverage for mental illness..and just like anything else negotiated fees and approved physicians that comply with medicare/Medicaid standards.. no rationing. There isn’t a set amount of dollars for a set amount of people and no where does it even allude to that in the slightest.
>
> Here's the full Health Care bill that sits in the House. <http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h3200ih.p df>
>
This is called double speak. You have done nothing different than the people you are complaining about. You are simply explaining it in a different way that conforms to what you believe. The wording of the bill leaves things so open there is no real way of knowing when the government's power and influence will end. That is the point of a thousand page bill. To leave the public stupified. I commend you for your beliefs, but you can't expect to put your spin out there and just expect that to be the absolute truth. You know no more how this plan will work than we do, thanks to the way it has been written. The government often writes legislation in such a way that it leaves issues open for debate and compromise should the need arise. That way, they can do things as they see fit, without threat of being in violation of their own rules. If you leave things broad and open, it's much easier to manipulate and control. And in the end, they are going to push it through anyway. So, I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens after.
What an Excellent thread, one of the Best I have seen since joining this board. Well Done! I also note that it is obvious that those that have bought into the propaganda from the right are having a very difficult time refuting the Truth, it always is.
Casper
Oh yes, good point! A member of the other side gives us their take on the bill and that is the "truth" Bravo! This debate is over. Shall we move on to Cap and Trade?
This is a very long post and for that I apologize for that, but it's very worth reading. I felt it deserved it's own thread.
Another poster had posted what she had heard Peter Fleckstein say about Obama's Health Care Plan. She wrote the page , section and even line number that he was references. Funny, this poster suggested we all read it...she obviously didn't read it herself, but posted what she thought was a "trusted" source. Unfortunately many people will just take his word for it and NOT read it for themselves. When I did, it's ASTONISHING how far the right stretches to place FEAR into the minds of the people.. and how FAR OFF they are... I mean these people are truly desperate to dissuade the American public away from this plan. ..and you have to wonder why.
Anyway.. the information she/he wrote is in black.. mine replies and even quotes from the bill are in blue.
Enjoy.. and you know what.. don't even take my word for it.. DO read it for yourself. Your eyes will be open to how badly the right is lying to all of you! AND don't even take Obama and the White House's word for it.. READ IT.. I did!
Pg 22 of the Bill MANDATES the Govt will audit books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self insure!!
Page 22 talks about a government STUDY on different forms of health care coverage. .. Particularly Large group insured and self insured employer based health markets.
The difference between them and the risks faced by the self insured being able to pay obligations or otherwise becoming financially insolvent. Etc. NOWHERE on that page does it talk about auditing self insured businesses books.
> Pg 30 Sec 123 of bill - THERE WILL BE A GOVT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benefits you receive.
This talks about a government ADVISORY committee for both private and public options to RECOMMEND covered benefits and essential , enhanced and Premiume (in otherwords, to advise what level certain things falls under etc..
> Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill - YOUR HEALTHCARE IS RATIONED.
Rationed? NO. .this sets a STANDARD of CARE for the ESSENTIAL BENEFITS Package as defined in another section.. in otherwords.. a level of insurance that is the MINIMUM acceptable to be considered GOOD coverage and NOT underinsurance. As a matter of fact.. here is a line from the previous page under that section
10 does not impose any annual or lifetime limit
11 on the coverage of covered health care items and
12 services;
The subsequent sections also talk about what insurance has to cover MINIMALLY.. and INCLUDES maternity.. WHICH .. BTW. Is not ALWAYS covered under every plan available NOW!
It limits cost sharing.. in otherwords.. out of pocket expenses for the insured individual so as not to be exorbetent and therefore overly expensive making insurance at the MINIMUM level much more expensive BEYOND the monthly premiums for the insured.
>
And.. those lines you are referring to.. talk about MAXIMUMS that cost sharing.. ie: money out of the insureds pocket CAN NOT EXCEED.. NOWHERE in there does it mention ANYTHING about rationing care!!!
> Pg 42 of HC Bill - The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your Health care Benefits for you. You have no choice in the decision.
WOW.. they really know how to twist things don’t they.
His job is to make sure that INSURANCE PLANS THAT ARE OUT THERE AND OFFERED ON THE EXCHANGE MEET THE MINIMUM STANDARD SET FORTH AND AS MENTIONED ABOVE.
Again.. this is in response to plans that basically offer NOTHING.. THIS is so that ALL OF US who purchase insurance can be CONFIDENT that there is a MINIMUM STANDARD with things SET OUT that we KNOW will be covered at the very BASIC standard level!!!
He is also in charge of setting up the exchange of plans.. in otherwords.. all those submitted into the exchange comply with the law in regards to cost sharing/ standards/etc.
>
> PG 50 Section 152 in HC bill - Healthcare will be provided to ALL non US citizens, illegal or otherwise.
NO.. it says that INSURANCE on the exchange can not be denied for discriminatory reasons.. in otherwords and illegal immigrant CAN purchase insurance. NOWHERE in there does it even USE the words illegal and immigrant. ..
>
> Pg 58 - Govt will have real-time access to individual finances & a National ID Healthcard will be issued.
Here is the text you are referring to
enable the real-time (or near real6
time) determination of an individual’s financial
7 responsibility at the point of service and, to the
8 extent possible, prior to service, including
9 whether the individual is eligible for a specific
10 service with a specific physician at a specific fa11
cility, which may include utilization of a ma12
chine-readable health plan beneficiary identi13
fication card;
>
Nowhere in there does it say ANYTHING About a National health Care CARD.. ONLY a BENEFITS CARD..which is basically your insurance ID card and talks about REAL TIME availability of information right there about what you are covered for and what your charges are. It cuts down on the paperwork.. and mistakes .
> Pg 59 HC Bill lines 21-24 Govt will have direct access to your bank accounts for direct funds transfers.
>
NO.. it talks about standardized electronic Adminstrative Transactions.. in otherwords the Dr.s office and/or insurance company will automatically deduct your copay from your card. If you are on a government plan, then the government plan will withdraw your funds electronically ( ore really the doctor will at the point of transaction) this also eliminates paperwork.
BTW.. the DR. is the one who collects the copays NOT the insurance company be it a private or public company. AND. FYI .. most likely any insurance company ALREADY knows your bank account numbers etc… because it is there whenever you pay your bill!!
> PG 65 Sec 164 is a payoff subsidized plan for retirees and their families in Unions & community orgs (ACORN).
to provide reim19
bursement to assist participating employment-based
20 plans with the cost of providing health benefits to
21 retirees and to eligible spouses, surviving spouses
22 and dependents of such retirees.
23 (
Huh? Acorn.. so Acorn is the only employer, employee group out there that provides insurance to retirees?? Yeah.. okay.. not one mention of ACORN in there AT ALL.
>
> Pg 72 Lines 8-14 Govt is creating a Healthcare Exchange to bring private healthcare plans under Govt control.
No.. it’s setting up the exchange to make sure that plans SOLD to consumers meets the MINIMUM STANDARD of insurance.. Do you know how many people have insurance that is basically WORTHLESS and covers absolutely NOTHING of any substance?? And then that person thinking they were “insured” is actually NOT!! Not really?
It’s basically acting as a HUB of choices for individuals and businesses. AND in order to BE in that “exchange” you MUST meet quality standards set forth by the government. Simple to understand and it makes much sense!!
>
> PG 84 Sec 203 HC bill - Govt mandates ALL benefit packages for private Healthcare plans in the Exchange
>
No.. once again.. it sets STANDARDS for the different levels.. so that you are getting a Basic if you pay for basic and arent’ thinkng you are paying for Premium when you are not getting the “level” deemed PREMIUM.
> PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specifics for Benefit Levels of Plans = The Government rations Healthcare based on cost benefits to government.
Rations.. LOL.. do you know or he know what rationing is?? NO. .it just sets the quality level for each level.. it doesn’t say that each person only gets X amount of dollars allotted to them or x amount of procedures.. Obviously the lame brain who made these comments does not know what they are talking about.. or they are really perverting what it actually says to scare people.. most of whom would not even do what I’m doing now.. actually READ each section. Geez.. it just blows my mind how ridiculous this is.
>
> PG 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill - Govt mandates linguistic appropriation services or translation services for illegal aliens.
>
Hmm.. there are plenty people here legally for whom English language is not their first language.. Are they not entitled to fully understand their doctors, nurses or the medical forms they are given? We are the “melting pot” of the world are we not. Which means that there are many people that live here legally and otherwise who do not speak fluint English nor would understand more complex language involved in forms that would be more comfortable reading it in their own language. Says NOTHING about illegal immigrants. Heck there are people here illegally that speak English better than some people who are here legally. This assertion is just ridiculous and meant to appeal to the right wingers who want to throw out health care reform for their own citizens , who far outnumber illegals, because of their stance on immigration or animosity toward illegals.
> Pg 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18 The Govt will use groups like ACORN & Americorps to sign up individuals for Govt Healthcare plan
What is wrong with this? It talks about these groups REACHING OUT to the most vulnerable of the population.. the ones most likely unable to afford a private plan and teaching them about their options of a public plan AND all those that will be part of the exchange. They are utilizing group/ groups that already have the ability and who are already working in an outreach capacity to reach people that need to be reached in order to pull them from the ranks of the uninsured INTO the ranks of the insured.
>
> -PG 102 Lines 12-18 HC Bill - Medicaid Eligible Individuals will be automatically enrolled in Medicaid.
>
Yeah.. what’s wrong with this. They haven’t elected to role and they qualify for FREE healthcare under Medicaid because of their income levels. .. which means that they can’t afford any of the private or even the public option in the exchange. Medicaid is FREE!! They do nothing and are enrolled in it automatically!! If they get ill or need to be treated for something.. .they are COVERED!! They would get it anyway because..they are POOR . So .. what is the problem.
> pg 124 lines 24-25 No company can sue GOVT on price fixing. No "judicial review" allowed against Govt monopoly
yeah.. so.. basically other insurance companies can’t sue the government because they offer cheaper plans.. .which, btw, is the point of offering a “cheaper” plan.. so that people can afford it.
Hey.. if someone can afford to pay more and is truly afraid of the government.. then they won’t chose the public option and will choose the private. Given how there are many that “fear’ government health care, I’m sure the higher cost private companies will not have any problems attracting buyers for a little more. Plus.. the lower cost government option may actually encourage some price competition within the private sector. How? Well for one they’ll have to forego corporate excess in order to compete.. in otherwords.. they won’t be able to pay one executive an excessive salary of 14M… not really a bad thing AT ALL.
It protects the governments ability to actually PROVIDE an alternative affordable option to the public should they chose to
>
> pg 127 Lines 1-16 HC Bill - Doctors/ AMA - The Govt will dictate what wage you are allowed to make. (Wage limits).
NO.. .. here it is:
PHYSICIANS.—The Secretary shall provide
2 for the annual participation of physicians under the
3 public health insurance option, for which payment
4 may be made for services furnished during the year,
5 in one of 2 classes:
6 (A) PREFERRED PHYSICIANS.—Those phy7
sicians who agree to accept the payment rate
8 established under section 223 (without regard
9 to cost-sharing) as the payment in full.
10 (B) PARTICIPATING, NON-PREFERRED
11 PHYSICIANS.—Those physicians who agree not
12 to impose charges (in relation to the payment
13 rate described in section 223 for such physi14
cians) that exceed the ratio permitted under
15 section 1848(g)(2)(C) of the Social Security
16 Act.
It talks about Doctors that CHOSE to Accept the FEES are basically IN the public plan network!!!
How is this any different than a doctor that agrees to accept the “fees” set forth and negotiated by the private insurance companies. It doesn’t dictate by any means a cap on a Dr’s income or any other health care service income.. ONLY the FEES that will be paid for the covered patient under the PUBLIC OPTION Plan!
17> Pg 145 Line 15-17 An Employers MUST enroll their employees into the public option plan. THEY HAVE NO CHOICE, and neither do the employees.
NO.. it says that an employer MUST provide coverage to its employers AND must do so from one of the insurance companies/plans offered in the Exchange.. again.. the exchange sets up STANDARDS… MINIMUM standards so as to eliminate sub standard insurance and coverage which basically is crap. And it makes sure that employers are offering adequate coverage to their employees AND it states that the employer must AUTOMATICALLY ENROLL employee in the plans that they select from the exchange..
It also states that an employer can not contribute less than a set amount (75% individual / 65% family) meaning that an individual will pay no more than 25% of the premium and a family 35% of the premium.
Yes.. it appears in this section that insurance is MANDATED.. but we all knew that.. No surprise. And there is a section that asseses fines for those not in compliance with the mandate. I believe for individuals it’s a 2% of income fine.
I have no problem with mandating of insurance. Car insurance is mandated the same way. You can’t lift pre-existing condition clauses without mandating coverage.
>
> Pg 126 Lines 22-25 Employers MUST pay premiums for every employee, part time employees AND their families as well.
I think this is referencing the wrong page
>
> Pg 149 Lines 16-24 ANY Employer with a payroll of $400,000 will have an 8% tax levied on all payroll.
Again.. this is the option if a company does not want to provide insurance.. and yes, it means either buy insurance or pay what amounts to a fine. Mandation of coverage…
>
> pg 150 Lines 9-13 Employers with payroll between $251,000 & 400,000 who does not provide in full, the public option, will have a 6% tax on all payroll levied.
Yes.. they do not have to buy insurance, but because they are smaller they pay a slightly lower fine.. Mandation of insurance coverage.
>
> Pg 167 Lines 18-23 ANY individual who doesn't have acceptable HC coverage according to Govt mandate, will be taxed at 2.5% of their income for healthcare. So, you will have government healthcare coverage, or you will be punished.
No. you don’t have to HAVE the government option or be punished…you have your choices of different options INCLUDING a public one. You are not forced to take the public one or even private. If not you will be assessed a fine of 2.5%. It’s not like they are automatically enrolling you in the government plan and deducting the money or adding the premium to your tax bill.You are simply paying into the system for being uninsured.. and rightfully so. Because if you get ill and sick, who do you think is going to pick up your bill. Tax payers. At least the fines you pay will help alleviate that bill paid by the rest of us should that uninsured person fall ill.
Remember.. those uninsured cost hospitals 37B in unpaid bills a year and the government much more. If people decide they still don’t want coverage, they SHOULD pay a fine to the government who will end up picking up their bill later. Nothing wrong with this. People will decide what is cheaper.. buying insurance or paying the 2.5% fine. Lets say you make $30K a year.. that is $780 dollar you’ll be paying> maybe a person making that much will elect to pay that cheaper fine than paying for the premiums offered on the exchange (including the government one). OR.. if they qualify for Medicaid they don’t’ have toworry.. they’ll have Medicaid at no cost AND no fine to boot.>
> Pg 170 Lines 1-3 HC Bill Any NONRESIDENT Alien is exempt from individual taxes. (Americans will pay)
Non resident aliens does not mean illegal aliens. However, since illegals don’t really file tax returns anyway I don’t understand what your objection is..LOL.they NEVER pay taxes.. Illegals are undocumented in all senses of the word.
>
> Pg 195 HC Bill -officers & employees of HC Administration (GOVT) will have total and complete access to ALL your personal financial, bank and investment information.
They basically have access to your tax return (which the government already has) to determine whether you qualify for health exchange subsidies. Um.. the government already has access to all that information.. Who do you think you are submitting your tax returns to? Some privately owned corporation???
>
> PG 203 Line 14-15 HC - "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax" Yes, it says that.
> You need to finish that sentence.. because it then goes on to say for a certain purpose.. under a certain section.. text below
The tax im15
posed under this section shall not be treated as tax
16 imposed by this chapter for purposes of determining
17 the amount of any credit under this chapter or for
18 purposes of section 55.’’.
19 (
> Pg 239 Line 14-24 HC Bill Govt will reduce physician services for Medicaid, Seniors, low income, and poor.
No… it talks about FEES Paid to physicians NOT actual services.
>
> Pg 241 Line 6-8 HC Bill - Wages for all doctors will be made the same. Specialists like Brain Surgeons will make the same money a General Practitioner makes.
No.. it talks about under the following categories of service provided the fees will be the same.. NOT over EVERYTHING provided by the specialists.. read the complete section below that that paragraph refers to; 9 ‘‘(5) SERVICE CATEGORIES.—For services fur10 nished on or after January 1, 2009, each of the fol11 lowing categories of physicians’ services (as defined 12 in paragraph (3)) shall be treated as a separate 13 ‘service category’: 14 ‘‘(A) Evaluation and management services 15 that are procedure codes (for services covered 16 under this title) for— 17 ‘‘(i) services in the category des18 ignated Evaluation and Management in the 19 Health Care Common Procedure Coding 20 System (established by the Secretary under 21 subsection (c)(5) as of December 31, 2009, 22 and as subsequently modified by the Sec23 retary); and VerDate Nov 24 200823:22Jul 14, 2009 Jkt 079200 PO 00000 Frm 00240 Fmt 6652 Sfmt 6201 E:\BILLS\H3200.IH H3200 jlentini on DSKJ8SOYB1PROD with BILLS 241 •HR 3200 IH 1 ‘‘(ii) preventive services (as defined in 2 section 1861(iii)) for which payment is 3 made under this section. 4 ‘‘(B) All other services not described in 5 subparagraph (A). 6 Service categories established under this paragraph 7 shall apply without regard to the specialty of the 8 physician furnishing the service.’’. >
> PG 253 Line 10-18 Govt sets value of Doctor's time. Govt. decides value of humans.
> It talks about the work and services of the DOCTOR.. NOT the value of the people the Doctor treats.. WOW.. how far the right will stretch!!!
> PG 265 Sec 1131Govt mandates & controls productivity for private HC industries.
This pertains to the government in medicare/Medicaid arena.. NOT between private insurance and those companies, doctors etc. The government has every right to do just that…as private industry does just those things when pertaining to quality, cost, etc.
>
> PG 268 Sec 1141 Fed Govt regulates rental & purchase of power driven wheelchairs
Under Medicaid/medicare..no different than a private negotiates with each entity. This is NOT across the board.. this all falls under Medicaid/medicare.
>
> PG 272 SEC. 1145. TREATMENT OF CERTAIN CANCER HOSPITALS - Cancer patients - welcome to rationing!
>
Rationing.. NO.. it talks about determining if some hospitals in the Medicaid/medicare network cost more than others that are just as effective is all. Nothing about limits on who gets what care or rationing.. Again.. a stretch and absurd accusation.
> Page 280 Sec 1151 The Govt will penalize hospitals for what Govt deems preventable re-admissions.
Again.. as related to medicare.. NOT as related to anything else other than who they pay for what.. that is the right of Medicaid/medicare.
>
> Pg 298 Lines 9-11 Doctors that treat a patient during initial admission will be penalized.
>
Under medicare.. in otherwords, the Dr. that treated is responsible for that treatment. If his work is sloppy.. he’ll get a reduced payment for not doing it right the first time..
> Pg 317 L 13-20 PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. Government dictates what Doctors can make and how much they can own.
Ah.. this is talking about when a Dr. under medicare refers a patient to a specific hospital. This si to prevent Dr’s from referring patients to a hospital based on monetary compensation above and beyond their fees by referring them to a hospital in which they have an “ownership” stake. It’s a conflict of interest of sorts.. kind of like a “kickback”. Makes sense. Again.. this is under MEDICARE/Medicaid only.
>
> Pg 317-318 lines 21-25,1-3 PROHIBITION on expansion- Govt mandates hospitals cannot expand without government approval.
Again.. only pertains to hospitals that qualify as providers under Medicaid/Medicare.. NOT across the boards.
>
> pg 321 2-13 Hospitals have opportunity to apply for exception BUT community input and approval is required. Can you say ACORN?!!
All falls under Medicaid/medicare.. has nothing to do with other reform private or government public option.
>
> Pg335 L 16-25 Pg 336-339 - Govt mandates establishment of outcome based measures. Rationing
It’s going to make sure that patients utilizing services are actually having an good outcome of said service. In otherwords.. what doesn’t work will be thrown out in favor of what does. Makes sense. And again. . this is al under the Medicaid/medicare section .. NOT the section pertaining to private insurance and public insurance option, exchange etc.
>
> Pg 341 Lines 3-9 Govt has authority to disqualify Medicare Advance Plans, HMOs, etc. Forcing people into the Govt plan.
If the plans do not meet the standards set forth under the criteria that they set up of MINIMUM standards in order to be a medicare/Medicaid provider, than they will not be a medicare/Medicaid provider. NOWHERE in that section does it say anything about then being pushed INTO the public option plan!!! THAT is a BOLD FACED LIE
> Pg 354 Sec 1177 - Govt will RESTRICT enrollment of Special needs persons for care. Can euthanasia be far behind for "undesirables"?
It means that someone can not enroll until the open enrollment period.. NOT that they can’t EVER enroll.
>
> Pg 379 Sec 1191 Govt creates more bureaucracy - Telehealth Advisory Committee. Can you say HC by phone?
It’s an EXPANSION of the telehealth.. meant to help those in RURAL areas.. as the title of that section indicates ; Medicare Rural Access Protections.
> > PG 425 Lines 4-12 Govt mandates Advance Care Planning Consultation. Euthanasia and Doctor-Assisted Suicide.
Mandates.. NO it provides seniors with counseling on setting up living wills, health care proxies and so on so that they along with their families, are prepared for what may come. It says nothing about killing off old people or Assisted Suicide. It counsels families about PALATIVE care and HOSPICE!!! It counsels on why it’s important to SET YOUR DIRECTIVE of what actions YOU want your family to take FOR YOU in the event you are unable to make decisions for yourself.. like.. do you want to be on life support if that is the only way to sustain your life..etc.Many people are not even aware of what these things are.. do you have ANY idea the turmoil of a family member not knowing what you may or may not want in the event of complete incapacitation has on people.
>
> Pg 425 Lines 17-19 Govt will instruct & consult regarding living wills, and assume power of attorney of all enrollees. Mandatory!
NOWHERE does it say that the State will then make the decision . And if someone hasn’t designated someone to make the decision, then what? Who does if the person can’t. Is it so wrong that if you are enrolled in medicare you have someone to make decision for you should you not be able to so that YOUR OWN WISHES are carried out? It says right there the PERSONS OWN WISHES.. NOT that of the state. > > PG 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3 Govt provides approved list of end of life resources, guiding you in death decisions to end your life.
Here it is.. it’s basically just saying that the practitioner will provide a list of resources..RESOURCES!! All of which will help a person make the decisions THEY WANT!!!
An explanation by the practitioner of the
20 continuum of end-of-life services and supports avail21
able, including palliative care and hospice, and bene22
fits for such services and supports that are available
23 under this title.
VerDate Nov 24 2008 00:08 Jul 15, 2009 Jkt 079200 PO 00000 Frm 00425 Fmt 6652 Sfmt 6201 E:\BILLS\H3200.IH H3200 jlentini on DSKJ8SOYB1PROD with BILLSThe Govt will mandate how your life ends.
The government doesn’t mandate anything. It provides you with all your options!!
>
> Pg 429 Lines 1-9 An "advance care planning consultant" will be used frequently as a patient's health deteriorates
> > PG 429 Lines 10-12 "advance care consultation" may include an ORDER to initiate end of life plans. AN ORDER from GOV to terminate a life.
>
No. .it talks about what constitutes a legal form of action set out by the patient for what THE PATIENT wants done as far as measures at the end of their life WHEN their health deteriorates.
Here is a line from it:
effectively communicates the individual’s
18 preferences regarding life sustaining treatment, in19
cluding an indication of the treatment and care de20
sired by the individual;
> Pg 429 Lines 13-25 - The govt will specify which Doctors can write an end of life order.
is signed and dated by a physician (as de9
fined in subsection (r)(1)) or another health care
10 professional (as specified by the Secretary and who
11 is acting within the scope of the professional’s au12
thority under State law in signing such an order, in13
cluding a nurse practitioner or physician assistant)
14 and is in a form that permits it to stay with the in15
dividual and be followed by health care professionals
16 and providers across the continuum of care
Clearly they are talking about a physician that is well a legal physician.. not just any Joe Schmo on the street people.. LOL Come on..
>
> PG 430 Lines 11-15 The Govt will decide what level of treatment you will have at end of life
NO .. it talks about conditions in which the directive SET FORTH by the patient is carried out! NOT what the Government wants.. but what YOU, the person on medicare, set forth in your health proxy and living will.
>
> Pg 469 - Community Based Home Medical Services=Non profit orgs. Hello, ACORN Medical Services here!!?
>
ACORN?? Well unless ACORN meets all the medical criteria with their facilities set out in this section than Acorn won’t be doing ANYTHING regarding end of life. You know “community” “not for profit” could also include..oh CATHOLIC HOSPICES too you know!!!
> Page 472 Lines 14-17 PAYMENT TO COMMUNITY-BASED ORG. 1 monthly payment to a community-based org.
See my statement above.
>
> PG 489 Sec 1308 The Govt will cover Marriage & Family therapy. Which means government will now be involved in marriage and family decisions.
LOL. No.. it talks about how it will cover marriage counseling and mental health services.. same as it covers any medical condition it covers. Unless you thinkn Senators are going to be sitting in the room telling you what to do?? Are these people aware of what therapy/counseling actually is? Another stretch and false information put forth by the right wingers.. and it’s ridiculous
From the bill:
The term ‘marriage and family therapist
9 services’ means services performed by a marriage and
10 family therapist (as defined in paragraph (2)) for the diag11
nosis and treatment of mental illnesses, which the mar12
riage and family therapist is legally authorized to perform
13 under State law
>
> Pg 494-498 Govt will cover Mental Health Services including defining, creating, rationing those services.
No.. it will provide coverage for mental illness..and just like anything else negotiated fees and approved physicians that comply with medicare/Medicaid standards.. no rationing. There isn’t a set amount of dollars for a set amount of people and no where does it even allude to that in the slightest.
>
> Here's the full Health Care bill that sits in the House. <http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h3200ih.p df>
>
Tristan Mommy...thanks for your line item description of your interpretation of certain sections in the proposed healthcare legislation...however you have forgotten that HMOs already manage care. They are allotted a certain amount of money to take care of an identified population...if they do it cheaper...they keep the change.
Two of my very best friends died because their HMO would not administer the advanced tests and treatment they deserved.
Our state now has a law that mandates treatment for advanced breast cancer...I miss my friends...I remember my red headed friend telling me how her chest pains were getting worse...when I asked her about the tests she said her HMO would not write an order for an MRI and my other friend, a nurse with advanced breast cancer was told the treatment she wanted was "experimental" and would not approve the treatment. Both of my friends are dead now...but their memories live on...we must have the same health plan options that the Washintonians have....when they get sick they canvass the entire nation for the best treatment...experimental or not.....
Tristan Mommy...thanks for your line item description of your interpretation of certain sections in the proposed healthcare legislation..(legislation is often presented in a harmless looking or worse still, helpful manner. However, it will undergo hundreds of changes for roll call takes place and that's when the real dangers begin. Please know that HMOs already manage health care. They are allotted a certain amount of money to take care of an identified population...if they do it cheaper...they keep the change.
Two of my very best friends died because their HMO would not administer the advanced tests and treatment they deserved.
Our state now has a law that mandates treatment for advanced breast cancer...I miss my friends...I remember my red headed friend telling me how her chest pains were getting worse...when I asked her about the tests she said her HMO would not write an order for an MRI and my other friend, a nurse with advanced breast cancer was told the treatment she wanted was "experimental" and would not approve the treatment. Both of my friends are dead now...but their memories live on...we must have the same health plan options that the Washintonians have....when they get sick they canvass the entire nation for the best treatment...experimental or not.....
This is called double speak. You have done nothing different than the people you are complaining about. You are simply explaining it in a different way that conforms to what you believe. The wording of the bill leaves things so open there is no real way of knowing when the government's power and influence will end. That is the point of a thousand page bill. To leave the public stupified. I commend you for your beliefs, but you can't expect to put your spin out there and just expect that to be the absolute truth. You know no more how this plan will work than we do, thanks to the way it has been written. The government often writes legislation in such a way that it leaves issues open for debate and compromise should the need arise. That way, they can do things as they see fit, without threat of being in violation of their own rules. If you leave things broad and open, it's much easier to manipulate and control. And in the end, they are going to push it through anyway. So, I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens after.
wow.. give me a break.
Some of the langauge may be broad.. but NOWHERE in the bill does it talk about some of the very obvious bull**** spewed by the right.
For example.. when referring to end of life issues with medicare.
The right has continually CLAIMED that IN the legislation the government will MANDATE the counseling every 5 years adn it will be on how to kill yourself.
complete and utter BS.. NOWHERE in that section does it say MANDATORY. ONLY THAT IT WILL PROVIDE AND PAY for counseling (as a benefit) every 5 years (in otherwords, an old person can't get counseling on that every year and have the gov't foot the bill) unless the elderly person has a deteriorating health issue in which it WILL pay for said counseling sooner so that IN CLEAR LANGUAGE IT SAYS THAT THE PERSON CAN SET UP THEIR OWN DIRECTIVE. so that their own wished for the end of their life are set out. It talks about setting your health care proxy( the person appointed to make teh decisions for you that YOU appoint when you are no longer able to make it for yourself) and your LIVING WILL - designed sot hat the person in charge of your directive knows exactly step by step what your wishes are!!!
NOWHERE int here is there ANY Room for interpretation of government telling you and paying for you to kill yourself.
As a matter of fact there is a section in the bill which states that no funds will be provided for assisted suicide.
THAT RIGHT THERE proves 100% completely that the right is full of ****!! THEIR ONLY intention is to destroy the bill completely rather than to repair it and beef up the language so that it IS more clear and precise.
No.. they'd rather start calling Obama Hitler
Complete and utter BS.. adn this thread was intended to illustrate just how ridiculous it all is!
YOu don't want to take my word for .. read it your damned self. The page number and section is provided for right there. then you , yourself, can determine how much BS or not is being thrown out there.
TM..that is not the final bill to be voted on. And it could have been Obama himself that started this scare mongering when he spoke of his sick grandmother and her hip replacement. He also spoke of end of life decisions and whether or not some medical treatment would be warranted given their age and current health. Obama said that early on. Maybe, just maybe, he stoked the flames that caused this fear.
There are those who believe health care should be a right. That statement is evidence of mass insanity or cognitive dissonance.
Let me rephrase it so it makes perfect sense.
1. HEALTH CARE (someone's labor) is a RIGHT (protected by Constitution).
2. RECEIVING HEALTH CARE (someone's labor) is a RIGHT (protected by Constitution).
3. COMPELLING someone else to do or pay for my health care is a RIGHT. (uh - no, that is involuntary servitude)
4. Giving HEALTH CARE is a RIGHT (nope - unlicensed practice of medicine is a crime).
So you see that what the government says is "health care reform" is not.
If you truly want universal health care, you need to decriminalize the giving of care, decriminalize the purchase of medicine and medical machinery, expand medical training and education, and eliminate tort liability by "Satisfaction guaranteed or your money back."
But that requires a reduction in power, which the government is loathe to do.
There are those who believe health care should be a right. That statement is evidence of mass insanity or cognitive dissonance.
Let me rephrase it so it makes perfect sense.
1. HEALTH CARE (someone's labor) is a RIGHT (protected by Constitution).
2. RECEIVING HEALTH CARE (someone's labor) is a RIGHT (protected by Constitution).
3. COMPELLING someone else to do or pay for my health care is a RIGHT. (uh - no, that is involuntary servitude)
4. Giving HEALTH CARE is a RIGHT (nope - unlicensed practice of medicine is a crime).
So you see that what the government says is "health care reform" is not.
If you truly want universal health care, you need to decriminalize the giving of care, decriminalize the purchase of medicine and medical machinery, expand medical training and education, and eliminate tort liability by "Satisfaction guaranteed or your money back."
But that requires a reduction in power, which the government is loathe to do.
Darn, I had a job lined up on one of the "Death Panels"
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