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But, here's the rub - politics has always been this way. Just watch British Parliament someday. The founders of the United States were brutal to one another - everything from false accusations about one's family lineage (sound familiar?) to gun duels to resolve disagreements.
It's just politics, and until human nature evolves it will remain the most effective way to win votes (remember, these tactics don't work unless we fall for them).
I meant in a way of hot and heavy debate. My stance now is wait until it fails and point it out. Keep pointing things out and maybe people will start to question.
I'm an independent too, left on some things, right on some things. When I took one of those online "Which Candidate Reflects You", believe it or not Obama and McCain were neck and neck, and the person closest to me was a third party candidate! Since there isn't a viable third party and the choices are between vanilla and chocolate, then I am more left. While the jury is still out for an overall grade on Obama, I am not going to blame him for singlehandedly "killing" our country. The "destruction" has happened for many, many years. People scream about how Obama supporters should "remove their blinders". Well people need to also remove theirs and see that this country was spiraling into this abyss for quite some time. Republicans and Democrats were equally to blame for it. I feel that Obama inherited a HUGE mess that I think many of us wouldn't know how to make better (yet we armchair critics can feel free to give criticism, haha). I'm only 34, but I don't think I've seen it as bad as this.
Obama's mistake probably is to promise too much too soon, when not fully understanding that a) he is just a cog in the Washington wheel and b) the Congress truly calls the shots. I can agree that he is an appeaser to an extent, and his desire to make everyone happy just ends up backfiring and giving more fodder to the wing nuts out there. He has some pretty interesting ideas that I think probably need to be better executed. I think his advisers, considering he's a newbie, aren't all that great, IMO.
I think that right now, in the terrible time we're in, people need to put their collective heads together and try to come up with some real solutions here instead of blaming everyone and their uncle. What I see in these forums is a lot of screaming and bickering, but little in terms of actual solutions and suggestions. I have co-workers who are conservatives, and although our viewpoints differ, we can actually sit down and discuss things.
I think that moderate, Independent, are labels as well. If you are going to so say that all liberals are villains and all conservatives are villains, you need to see that you are ascribing values to the labels, and value to the labels you are applying to yourself. There is no value in labeling people.
I self-identify my politics as being liberal, because where I live my perspective is quite liberal. On a national scale, I wouldn't be seen as liberal at all. But on these forums, when people bash one another for being conservative or liberal, I often defend a conservative point of view, and then identify myself as a liberal to deflect the knee-jerk response, to get someone to objectively evaluate what I've said, rather than to dismiss it as just another conservative opinion.
Self-identifying can be a good way to connect with other people. But labeling other people isn't about connections, it's about divisions. So I think that if you are self-identifying yourself as a moderate as a way to connect with others on the forum who don't feel like they fall into either partisan group, that's good, but I think if you are then dismissing the statements of anyone who doesn't identify themselves as moderates, that you are falling victim to the label fallacy as well.
Seriously though what is the point of saying "I am a liberal."?
Why not just be independent and focus on the issues?
Why do you have to jump on a bandwagon to tell you which side to take?
Why can't we just be individuals instead of categorizing and labeling ourselves like tools?
When you label yourself, you limit yourself.
Why are you so concerned? I am a liberal, plain & simple. There's no limiting myself & there's no band wagon & there's no tools. YOU are labeling yourself as an independent. That is a label in case you were unaware. Frankly I find you condescending. Oh yes, most of the independents that I speak to or have read about on this forum have a definite leaning & vote along party lines.
There's a reason these ideological camps formed. People attached to a certain worldview that they perceived as serving their highest interests and platforms emerged to reflect those views for different issues.
I do agree with the others that by dismissing everybody as a villain on both the left and the right, you are no better than any others and are perhaps just realizing how brutal politics really is.
I think that moderate, Independent, are labels as well. If you are going to so say that all liberals are villains and all conservatives are villains, you need to see that you are ascribing values to the labels, and value to the labels you are applying to yourself. There is no value in labeling people.
I self-identify my politics as being liberal, because where I live my perspective is quite liberal. On a national scale, I wouldn't be seen as liberal at all. But on these forums, when people bash one another for being conservative or liberal, I often defend a conservative point of view, and then identify myself as a liberal to deflect the knee-jerk response, to get someone to objectively evaluate what I've said, rather than to dismiss it as just another conservative opinion.
Self-identifying can be a good way to connect with other people. But labeling other people isn't about connections, it's about divisions. So I think that if you are self-identifying yourself as a moderate as a way to connect with others on the forum who don't feel like they fall into either partisan group, that's good, but I think if you are then dismissing the statements of anyone who doesn't identify themselves as moderates, that you are falling victim to the label fallacy as well.
True, saying "moderate" or "independant" is a label. But these labels basically mean that you are not taking a side in this ridulous two party system we have. These labels represents a very, very broad spectrum of ideas instead of very specific ideas. The label "independant" represent an enormous range of philosophies.
In life you must label yourself to some level, you're right. It's impossible to avoid it 100%. Sometimes you have to do it just to emplain yourselves properly.
The problem is when people lose themselves in thse labels and begin to blindly follow these labels, when they start to passionately embody these labels. That's when it gets scary and ridiculous.
I'm pretty middle of the road. I tend to be fiscally conservative but, socially liberal. Where does that put me, moderate? Like most of us, I do the reading and decide for myself what position I feel is best and, it's not always what would benefit me but, what would be best for our country as a whole.
True, saying "moderate" or "independant" is a label. But these labels basically mean that you are not taking a side in this ridulous two party system we have. These labels represents a very, very broad spectrum of ideas instead of very specific ideas. The label "independant" represent an enormous range of philosophies.
In life you must label yourself to some level, you're right. It's impossible to avoid it 100%. Sometimes you have to do it just to emplain yourselves properly.
The problem is when people lose themselves in thse labels and begin to blindly follow these labels, when they start to passionately embody these labels. That's when it gets scary and ridiculous.
But I think when you start to get to know some of the posters on these threads, there are many that are passionate about their beliefs, but their beliefs don't always fall into the party line. There are nuances in these arguments. I don't want to name anyone specifically, but I've found that the majority of the posters, even some of the extreme ones, have views and perspectives that are much more complex than mere party identification. And discovering how much more complex they are, I've found quite rewarding.
You were in your prior post, which is why I responded to your comment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge
Liberals aren't villains.
That is your opinion, I happen to disagree. Or am I not allowed to disagree with your opinion?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge
But when you convince yourself that they are, you also convince yourself that it's okay to tune them out, it's okay to ignore what they say, it's okay to devalue everthing they say. When you stop listening for the merit in other people's words and only listen for the opportunities to rebut or to insult or to demean what they have to say, then you aren't just putting them into a box, you're putting yourself into a box, and closing the lid.
There is nothing of merit put forth by any liberal. Their repeated criminal activity, abject hatred of the US, and dishonorable conduct devalues anything they have to say. Only those who have earned respect have anything of merit worth reading or listening to, and there is nothing worthy of respect among liberals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge
I know a lot of stuff that gets said is just verbiage. I get tempted to tune people out, too. But even when I'm putting my argument out there, I am reading their arguments, and I'm finding merit in some of what they say, some of what you say. More than that, I'm touching base with a point of view that's different than mine, and by doing that I hope that I can communicate more effectively with you. I think that's productive. I think there's a lot of positives that can come out of the arguments people have on the internet. Sometimes it's just clarifying the boundaries. But more often, I think, it's practicing putting our positions and perspectives into words, nailing down what we really think, modifying our position when someone makes a really good point. Often, someone will say that no one's position gets changed on these threads, but I don't know if that's true. I won't stop being a liberal overnight, but there are incremental changes that have come about as a result of these discussions. And that's something, isn't it?
I happen to agree with those who "say that no one's position gets changed on these threads", and I would further assert that those who say their positions have changed never really held a specific position to begin with. The purpose of these threads is to voice our opinions, not to change people's minds.
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